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Sunday, 27 July 2014

Response to the claim 1/3 of Native American DNA came from the Middle East - now that would be a Great Surprise



During the last couple of years I have been asked several times to respond to claims by Mormons that recent human genomics research offers support for the belief that Native Americans have Jewish ancestors. The paper causing the excitement was published in the Jan 2013 issue of Natureone of the most prestigious scientific journals. The article in question was written by Raghavan et al. and entitled “Upper Palaeolithic Siberian Genome Reveals Dual Ancestry of Native Americans.”  The paper would have gone unnoticed by Mormons had a National Geographic journalist not sensationalised it with the following hyperbole.


"Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins.

Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought.
Nearly one-third of Native American genes come from west Eurasian people linked to the
 Middle East and Europe, rather than entirely from East Asians as previously thought, according to a newly sequenced genome.


Not surprisingly some Mormons reading these headlines have seized upon this research as conclusive proof that Native Americans have Middle Eastern, and thus potentially Jewish, DNA (1, 2, 3, 4). Even President Newsroom cited Raghavan's research in the Church's official "Book of Mormon and DNA Studies" essay, claiming it challenges previous conclusions and proves the picture isn't clear. But the conclusions being challenged have nothing to do with recent Hebrew migrations. The Raghaven study is focussed on a 25,000-year-old paleolithic DNA sample which tells us something about major human migration events that took place over 20,000 years ago. There is nothing in the Raghavan research that supports the Book of Mormon or challenges the mainstream scientific views about the colonization of the New World. Native Americans are still all descended from ancient Asian ancestors.

The Context of the Research 


Raghavan's research adds another detail to a broad scientific understanding of the timing and route our ancestors took as they colonised the globe. The common ancestors of all humans lived in sub-Saharan Africa. They began migrating "out of Africa" about 80,000 years ago and by about 50,000 years ago had colonized Western Asia, India and Southeast Asia and Australia (Fig.1). Eastern Asia was colonised by people derived from this southern migration event. By about 40,000 years ago people arrived in Europe and Central Asia via a northern route, finally reaching the Americas between 15 and 25,000 years ago.

Fig.1.   Major routes and timing of human colonisation of the world 
(Wellcome Trust, www.sanger.ac.uk

Scientists have found no evidence that we all descend from a single man and women (Adam and Eve) who lived on the earth about 6,000 years ago. This is simply not what happened. The volumes of evidence in support of the mainstream scientific views are vast and span numerous disciplines. It is the truth and Mormons should face it. When the individual Raghavan's team studied was alive, humans had not even reached the Americas so it is difficult to comprehend how it tells us anything about mythical Jewish migrations in the last few thousand years. 

Fig. 2.  The extent of human colonization of the world 25,000 years ago 
and the location of Raghavan's Siberian sample.


The 2014 Raghavan Study 

Raghavan's team isolated DNA from the bones of a 24,000-year-old individual and sequenced its entire genome. They then examined 156,000 DNA markers (SNPs) to reveal how closely related this individual is to hundreds of other people from contemporary populations (Fig. 3). The more DNA markers two individuals share the more closely related they are. 


Fig. 3.  Heat map of relatedness between the Siberian (MA-1) and individuals from numerous 
geographical locations around the world. The graded heat key on the left indicates the 
degree of relatedness with red indicating high relationship and black low relationship. 
(See Raghavan et al. 2014)

The major finding of the study is that the Siberian individual (MA-1) is not closely related to other Central and Eastern Asians (dark blue dots) and much more closely related to Native Americans (red dots). In addition, this Siberian appears to be related to people now living in Europe and Western Asia (yellow, light blue-green dots). This suggests that this Siberian individual's ancestors had migrated from Western Eurasia into Siberia, but when they arrived they did not mix very much with Asian populations living further east. Consequently, when some of this Siberian's descendants migrated on to the Americas, they didn't carry many DNA markers found in East Asian populations.

Another way of illustrating the results of the study is shown in Fig. 4 below. All Eurasians and Native Americans descend from people who lived in West Asia (near modern day Afghanistan and Pakistan) about 50,000 years ago (see also Fig. 1.). These people carried with them large numbers of DNA markers that can be defined as West Asian. When the ancestors of the Siberians and Europeans/Middle Easterners migrated away from each other, both groups carried the same set of West Asian (blue) DNA markers with them. This is why the Siberian individual carried DNA markers also found in Europeans and Middle Easterners. They shared common ancestors about 15,000 years earlier (50,000 years ago).   

However, once they became separated from each other, each group began to accumulate DNA markers that were unique to each group. This is indicated by the green (Eur/ME) and purple (Siberian) shading on the tree (Fig. 4). Once the Siberian groups encountered East Asians some of their DNA lineages (red) also entered Siberian populations, and some of these DNA markers found their way to the Americas.


Fig. 4.  Origin of DNA markers in Native Americans and some Eurasian populations 
and the approximate timing of their occurrence 

Summary

Virtually all Eurasian and New World populations descend from populations that migrated out of Africa and colonised West Asia about 50,000 years ago. Eastern Asia is likely to have been first colonised by populations that split away from a southern migration through India that ended in Australia. The Raghavan study tells us that Siberians are mostly derived from people who migrated into Central Asia via a northern route that resulted in little admixture with Eastern Asian populations. The research paper is focussed on very ancient migrations and tells us nothing about the likelihood or occurrence of recent Jewish migrations to the pre-Columbian New World.


211 comments:

  1. Hi, Simon--
    Another interesting article. Thanks.

    Since our earlier discussion of Nephi's prophecy that Columbus would discover islands filled with the descendants of his brothers with no reference to any admixture, a study of Puerto Rican DNA has been published. The report accounts for 5,000 years of genetic history of the entirely Taino population Columbus encountered.
    http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2014/07/25/genographic-project-dna-results-reveal-details-of-puerto-rican-history/#at_pco=cfd-1.0&at_ab=-&at_pos=0&at_tot=4&at_si=53d42c7f15d559e8
    “Tainos, the largest indigenous Caribbean population, were living a life based on the cultivation of root crops and fishing when upon the shores arrived Columbus and his fleet, having crossed the Atlantic Ocean for the second time in as many years. At that point in time everything changed.”

    Everything has changed for the apologists, also; this study makes many of their evasions irrelevant, because Nephi himself declared these people to be Lehites. They existed on an island. As Nephi prophesied, Columbus visited that island populated exclusively by prophetically-declared Lehites. Everything changed for that population but the genetic family tree whose roots had sunk into that island for 5,000 years, entirely Taino, entirely Asian-derived. That rich legacy remained for the scientific investigation reported on in this article.

    "The results, just published in the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, paint a picture of vast historic complexity dating back some 5,000 years, to the first Caribbean peoples."

    Given this new data, and the extent to which it cuts through some of the apologetic twists and dodges, isn't it time to invite Crandall and others to a "shoot-out" among qualified researchers including yourself to debate this particular situation of a discrete pool of prophetically stipulated Lehites encountering DNA research? In person or on paper? I think the challenge should be made and if they don’t show up, people can draw their own conclusions. If they do, people will no doubt also draw their own conclusions.

    Regards,

    Pete

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  2. Thanks Simon for all your work. I never get tired of your refreshing objective truth.

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  3. To nail this down it would be great to see the hypothetical "tree" (like Figure 4) required to validate the Nephite migration combined with the Raghaven research.

    Randy Farr

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  4. As a devout LDS member I agree that the nephites or lamanites never set foot in Central America but were located in the great plains and great lakes area of North America. The Book of Mormon is quite clear on that as listed below in the following verses. Also the North American Sioux and Objibwa have dna ties to the middle eastern Druze by haplo group x.

    1) The land of desolation is next to the hill Cumorah Ether 15:11, 15:2. Verse 2 verifies that it was the land desolation by the amount of people slain


    11And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred. 2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.

    2) In Mormon 3:7 it says this
    7 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and sixty and first year the Lamanites did come down to the city of Desolation to battle against us; and it came to pass that in that year we did beat them, insomuch that they did return to their own lands again.
    The Lamanites would not have traveled from Central America to New York and back to Central America a 5000 mile journey through jungle desert and colder temperate climate.
    3) Alma 63 4-5 places the land of Desolation, Zarahemla,Bountiful, West Sea, and the narrow neck all within the same vicinity of land Desolation or the hill Cumorah.
    4 And it came to pass that in the thirty and seventh year of the reign of the judges, there was a large company of men, even to the amount of five thousand and four hundred men, with their wives and their children, departed out of the land of Zarahemla into the land which was northward.
    5 And it came to pass that Hagoth, he being an exceedingly curious man, therefore he went forth and built him an exceedingly large ship, on the borders of the land Bountiful, by the land Desolation, and launched it forth into the west sea, by the narrow neck which led into the land northward.

    4) Alma 22 27-8,32 Places Sea West, narrow strip of wilderness, Manti, River Sidon, Zarahemla, Fathers first inheritance, and the land of Desolation again all within the same vicinity of each other also meaning that it would be within traveling distance of the Hill Cumorah

    27 And it came to pass that the king sent a proclamation throughout all the land, amongst all his people who were in all his land, who were in all the regions round about, which was bordering even to the sea, on the east and on the west, and which was divided from the land of Zarahemla by a narrow strip of wilderness, which ran from the sea east even to the sea west, and round about on the borders of the seashore, and the borders of the wilderness which was on the north by the land of Zarahemla, through the borders of Manti, by the head of the river Sidon, running from the east towards the west—and thus were the Lamanites and the Nephites divided.
    28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.
    32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.




    part1

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    1. @ anonymous "devout LDS member" - The American Indian don't need your white god.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ewp1oda3LlA&list=PLY_gkN16_QTcLh5gmWvPtlFRDJfRqmbK0&index=1

      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu6wSxcIZDSGa0kSJDSgqQA

      Delete
  5. 5) Ether 9:34, Mosiah 18:4, and Alma 22:31 refer to migrating beast and beast that could survive off of for food. The verses also refer to season. Central America has no migrating land animals and its seasons are hot and hotter. North America has migrating Buffalo which was dependent upon the season. There was an estimated 60 million buffalo at one time that the American Indians used to sustain themselves. The US government attempted to wipe out the American Indians by killing off the buffalo.
    34 And it came to pass that the people did follow the course of the beasts, and did devour the carcasses of them which fell by the way, until they had devoured them all. Now when the people saw that they must perish they began to repent of their iniquities and cry unto the Lord.
    4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.
    31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.
    6) These verses probably refer to tornados 3Nephi 8:16, 2Nephi 26:5 3Nephi 10:14 Central America does not have tornados North America has an area referred to as tornado alley
    16 And there were some who were carried away in the whirlwind; and whither they went no man knoweth, save they know that they were carried away.
    5 And they that kill the prophets, and the saints, the depths of the earth shall swallow them up, saith the Lord of Hosts; and mountains shall cover them, and whirlwinds shall carry them away, and buildings shall fall upon them and crush them to pieces and grind them to powder.
    14 And now, whoso readeth, let him understand; he that hath the scriptures, let him search them, and see and behold if all these deaths and destructions by fire, and by smoke, and by tempests, and by whirlwinds, and by the opening of the earth to receive them, and all these things are not unto the fulfilling of the prophecies of many of the holy prophets.
    7) Alma 49:22, Alma 49:18 Alma 48:8 refer to Nephites and using banks of earth to enclose and fortify their cities. The Great Lakes indian tribes used mound of dirt to enclose their cities.
    22 Now when they found that they could not obtain power over the Nephites by the pass, they began to dig down their banks of earth that they might obtain a pass to their armies, that they might have an equal chance to fight; but behold, in these attempts they were swept off by the stones and arrows which were thrown at them; and instead of filling up their ditches by pulling down the banks of earth, they were filled up in a measure with their dead and wounded bodies.
    18 Now behold, the Lamanites could not get into their forts of security by any other way save by the entrance, because of the highness of the bank which had been thrown up, and the depth of the ditch which had been dug round about, save it were by the entrance.
    8 Yea, he had been strengthening the armies of the Nephites, and erecting small forts, or places of resort; throwing up banks of earth round about to enclose his armies, and also building walls of stone to encircle them about, round about their cities and the borders of their lands; yea, all round about the land.

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  6. part 3

    8) Alma 22:32 refers to the narrow strip of land only taking a day and a half to travel. It takes on average three weeks to traverse the narrowest part of central America from the Pacific and to the Atlantic. It’s a 50 mile strip of land that includes jungle and a mountain range. Between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario there is an 18 mile strip of land that takes approximately a day and a half to traverse and is about 40 miles away from the hill Cumorah.

    32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a half’s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small neck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

    9) D&C 28:8,9 Refers to the city of Zion being built and the borders of the Lamanites. That would be the be in Jackson County Missouri meaning the borders of the Lamanites would include Missouri as being near the border of the Lamanites.
    8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

    9 And now, behold, I say unto you that it is not revealed, and no man knoweth where the city Zion shall be built, but it shall be given hereafter. Behold, I say unto you that it shall be on the borders by the Lamanites.

    10) D&C 125:3 Is self-explanatory. It does not refer to Zarahemla as a new Zarahemla but one could assume that it refers to the original Zarahemla.
    3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it.
    11) Mormon 1:10 The River Sidon would be the Mississippi river being that Nauvoo is next to the same rive and Zarahemla. The head of the River Sidon would be where the Ohio River and the Mississippi River meet.
    10 And it came to pass that the war began to be among them in the borders of Zarahemla, by the waters of Sidon.
    12) One of the largest earthquakes to ever hit the USA was along the New Madrid Fault along the Mississippi River in the 1800’s. During this earthquake the Mississippi River flowed backwards new lakes were made and some lake went dry. The New Madrid Fault erupts about every 300 years. Which means that it corresponds to the time that Christ would have visited the North American continent.

    13) The Hopewell Indians is the best candidate to be the Nephite Indians. Their rise and disappearance corresponds with the Book of Mormon timeline.

    David

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  7. The below link shows the correlation between the middle east and the Great Lakes Indians. In fact there is scientific theory of this migration called the soultrean hypothesis saying that the first settlers to America were from Europe not Asia. La The haplo group x dna has its largest concentration of population of the Great lakes Indians and Eurasia as shown in the link below. Not to mention that those indian had copper breast plates and copper head plates being mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

    Simon you may want to delete this post because of its scientific value.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA).PNG

    David



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  8. Ah, I see we have a Meldrumite in our midst. For the uninitiated, these individuals are followers of Rod Meldrum's "Heartland Model" for the setting of the Book of Mormon. I mention this to distinguish them from Jeffery Meldrum, a "scientist" who also engages in LDS apologetics. Dr. Meldrum is also the "world's leading Bigfoot Authority," and as one might guess, has trouble garnering acceptance among mainstream scholarly sorts. Seriously, folks, the stories of Bigfoot are as bogus as those of the Nephites and Lamanites, but this is Simon's site, and he does ask us to maintain decorum here and not bring too much ridicule to the debates. Well, when I poke fun at something, I'm going to borrow a page from the pious sorts who "hate the sin but love the sinner." I'm only skewering the claims, not the claimant.

    Anonymous Dave's long four-part posting can easily be broken down into two components; most of it comprises some lengthy--copy-and-paste I hope; it would be mortifying to think someone actually typed all of this in this modern era--extractions from the Book of Mormon about where the alleged events occurred. The much smaller portion consists of some "information" about DNA and DNA and DNA evidence among several populations.

    Regarding the "where," all of this amounts to a defense of what Simon--and many others--have maintained for years, which is that the "Heartland Model" is utterly consistent with what Joseph Smith proclaimed and at odds with the "Limited Geography Theory" which holds sway among the academics at the Maxwell Institute and their former partners-in-squabble at FAIR.

    It seems best to let those who believe in the BOM hash that issue out; those of us who've concluded it's a fraud see that question as irrelevant after we've simply pointed to the history and the language and listened to the LGT folks insist "The Book of Mormon doesn't say way it says" and engaging in all manner of rhetorical gerrymandering in their attempts to prove their point.

    As far as the issue of DNA connections between the Sioux and Objibwa and the Druze of the Middle East, however, Anonymous Dave has engaged in some of the most slipshod cherry-picking imaginable, and that warrants a rebuttal. One wonders, though, why the Druze are even included. As a people, they date to barely 1000 A.D. some sixteen hundred years after Lehi (they are Muslims of a sort, mostly living in Syria, Israel, and that area). They do have a large percentage of Haplogroup X among their mitochondrial DNA with considerable variability, but so what? The two mtDNA haplogroups of X found among Native Americans, mostly X2a, are not found found in the Middle East, and the evidence is they split off from the other X hg's around 30,000 years or so. And there's solid evidence they entered this hemisphere at the same time as the other four Native American mtDNA haplogroups.

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    1. Mtdna timelines and usefulness in migration patterns are suspect because 1. mtdna is not strictly derived from mother. 2. Mutation rates assumed to be constant over time are not. And observed rates of mutation are 18 to 20 times faster than estimated models. It is known that 80% of mutations have happened in the last 5000 to 7000 years. http://www.trueorigin.org/mitochondrialeve01.asp

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  9. Part II

    That leaves the claim involving the "Solutreans" the last issue to be considered; the reference to copper is also irrelevant since "native copper" in its pure form was found widely in the Great Lakes area and was easily worked by Native American coppersmiths. There was no smelting involved, however, because such technologies always leave evidence in the archaeological record.

    Finally, to indulge in a bit of "tweaking," Anonymous Dave needs to learn the scientific distinction between "hypothesis" and "theory." There is no "Solutrean Theory" since claims of a North American/Ice Age Europe connection have never been accepted by mainstream anthropology or archaeology, one Smithsonian director not withstanding. Too, the "Solutrean Solution" (which was offered as an explanation for superficial similarities between flint spear points from different continents) suffered a mortal blow with the publication of the results of the sequencing of the autosomal (nuclear) DNA of the Clovis-era "Anzick Child" last February. Here's an extensive discussion that actually does have "scientific value," unlike Wiki, which can often be edited-at-will by the latest crank.

    http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/10/problematic-science-journalism-native-american-ancestry-and-the-solutrean-hypothesis/

    Jennifer Raff is a PhD molecular biologist who works under Deborah Bolnick, the scientist who sequenced the DNA in some pre-Columbian remains in the Hopewell area Anonymous Dave referred to. Dr. Bolnick, along with several others including Brad Leeper, the archaeologist for the State of Ohio, have published lengthy protests aimed at Rodney Meldrum's utterly dishonest claims--where he used their names--that were featured in the video "The Lost Civilizations of North America" and suggested their work supported ancient Old World/New World contact.

    Deborah Bolnick and Jennifer Raff utterly rejected this nonsense, and this column also points out how the Solutrean Hypothesis was utterly disproven by the Anzick DNA findings. The lengthy discussions in the comments section are noteworthy as well; in addition to legitimate scientists, there are several "fringe diffusionists" who engage in junk science tactics identical with LDS apologists. They didn't fare well when presented with actual science and scientific facts.

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    1. uncorrected typo: should read Brad Lepper

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  10. Concolor,
    Part 1
    The fact that the Book of Mormon mentions migrating beast (buffalo), tornados, elephants ( there are elephant bones found in North America) and seasons. Makes it quite clear BOM geography took place were Joseph Smith said that it took place the great plains and great lakes area of north America. I do not need Ron Meldrum to tell me that the BOM is quite clear.

    I don’t know if you understand the soultrean hypothesis. It came about because the european haplo group x dna is isolated in the north east coast corner of North America it shows of a migration coming from Europe across the Atlantic not from Asia across the Bering strait. This haplo group is not found in the west coast of North America nor is it found in South America that’s why this theory came about because the Bering strait theory does not show a haplo group x migration. Some scientist believe this group crossed the Atlantic ocean during the last ice age. The fact that that crossing would have been a 3000 mile journey over barren ice across the Atlantic seems very unlikely. You already know how I think haplo group x came to the North east part of North America its explained by the BOM.

    Archeological and cultural evidence of the North American Indians makes it quite clear that that the Book of Mormon is a historical record and not a work of fiction. I will list some examples below.

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    1. David, I was debunking the "Solutrean Solution" in private conversations with Simon five years ago, noting how large the Atlantic Ocean was and the 5,000 year time discrepancy between the Solutreans in Europe and the Clovis people in North America (which the Anzick finds demonstrate were ancesctors to virtually all Native Americans).

      And you're being dishonest with your claims about the mtDNA haplogroup X being found only in the eastern part of North America. It's found all the way west among the Yakima in Washington and the Navajo in the Southwest. Finally as I've demonstrated repeatedly, it has been found on this continent for as long as the other four hg's (on the order of 12,000 years), and the two strains here, X2a and X2a are significantly different than the varieties found in the Middle East (with the ones in Central Asia, Siberia, appearing to be "intermittent forms").

      Delete
    2. edit: uncorrected typo. Should read X2a and X2g

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  11. Part 2

    Hopewell Indians are in my opinion the nephite Indians. They are named after a farmer because the first archlogical site was found on his farm. The University of Wisconsin did a study of their use of copper.
    http://www.uwlax.edu/urc/JUR-online/PDF/2012/kocik.cynthia.pdf

    In this study it says the Hopewell Indians disappeared around 400 AD. The Book of Mormon says the Nephites were killed off at 421 AD close enough. It says the use of copper and trade stopped with Hopwell Indians. When European settlers arrived the great plains Indians did not have copper breastplates, headplates or copper arrowheads.

    In the research paper listed above in one Hopewell burial mound. Burial mound 25 contained 8 copper breastplates and 4 copper headplates. And over 1000 pieces of copper jewelry and figurines were found in this mound alone.

    BOM mosiah8:10 and 2Nephie 5:15 reads.

    10 And behold, also, they have brought breastplates, which are large, and they are of brass and of copper, and are perfectly sound
    15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.

    North American Indian metal worked stopped after the Hopewell Indians

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    1. Your opinion about the Hopewell being Nephites is wrong. Mound building traditions were in America before the time of the mythical flood of Noah.

      A Mound Complex in Louisiana at 5400-5000 Years Before the Present
      http://www.sciencemag.org/content/277/5333/1796.abstract

      The seeds and plants used by the people in the above mound complex became the domesticated crops of Eastern North America, and that happened before the arrival of Lehi.

      Eastern North America as an independent center of plant domestication
      http://www.pnas.org/content/103/33/12223.full.pdf+html

      Scientists do not concur with your timeline or who you claim the Hopewell were.

      Statement about "The Lost Civilizations of North America" DVD
      http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/statement-about-the-lost-civilizations-of-north-america-dvd/

      Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part One: An Alternate Reality
      http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_one_an_alternate_re/

      Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Two: False Messages in Stone
      http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_two_false_messages/

      Civilizations Lost and Found: Fabricating History - Part Three: Real Messages in DNA
      http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages/

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-sgVTgfdKg

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    2. tapir rider,

      The website you used about the hopewell indians contradict your own statement. The one listed below states the hopewell civilisation was from 100BC to 400AD. Which supports the time frame of the Book of Mormon. That would give Lehi's family 500 years to leave behind a cultural impact and there disappearance coincides with the Nephites being killed off by the Lamanites at 400AD. The research paper from the University of Wisconsin in the above link also supports the 100BC to 400AD time frame. According to the link you provided the University of Cincinnati also supports the same time frame.

      http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_one_an_alternate_re/

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    3. Sorry Anonymous Dave,

      You need to read what tapir rider said again. Here it is:

      Mound building traditions were in America before the time of the mythical flood of Noah.

      The Hopewell culture was probably the "zenith of the mound building culture," but mound builders in the Great Lakes area can be traced back 5,000 years (which is what he referred to as "before Noah").

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_Builders

      With your addiction to "circular arguments," you simply picked the Hopewell culture because the their time frame fit that of the mythical Nephites and Lamanites. Then you've bent the facts to fit your claims rather than let the evidence guide your explorations. Like all apologists, you start out with a conclusion and work backwords.

      Science and genuine critical thinking don't work in that fashion.

      Delete
    4. I can use these arguments because they still stand. You are referring to mound builders in general. Im referring to the Hopewell Indians which had its own distinct culture. Which according James Adair the indians in that region and their DNA go back to the middle east and old testament culture that is not disputed. So unless you can explain how the old testament culture came and middle eastern DNA came only to that part of North America I will continue to use these arguments. Also the Book of Mormon lds theology says the Jaredites and adam eve lived in North America with no specific time give to the Jaredites.

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    5. @anonymous - The time period of the Hopewell is not what is being disputed. Your interpretation of them is the problem. I pointed out a mound building tradition that began before the pyramids of Egypt. I pointed out that the plants and seeds used by the peoples at the Watson Brake site (at a time before Egypt's pyramids) became the domesticated plants used by the Hopewell. Eastern North America is one of only a few worldwide locations where plant domestication happened, and it happened in North America independently, with no contact or influence from any Old World peoples and it happened before you fantasy character Lehi allegedly arrived. You can believe whatever you want to. Just don't expect others to take it seriously.

      Delete
    6. David said "according James Adair the indians in that region and their DNA go back to the middle east and old testament culture that is not disputed."

      Bullshit. Not only has been disputed, it has been thoroughly debunked. Stop making false claims and get a grip on reality. If you can't, then keep your nonsense claims in your circle of deluded friends. I have very little patience for your absurd statements. I have given you facts and sources. If you wish to continue using false arguments then don't expect anyone to take anything you say seriously, and that is a fact.

      Delete
    7. Look at the link below its a fact.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)
      James Adair observations are facts

      Delete
    8. David said "Look at the link below its a fact.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)
      James Adair observations are facts"

      David, your understanding of Haplogroup X is even more flawed than your belief that Adair's opinions are fact. Get a grip on reality.

      Delete
    9. Let's give David some real science and not the wiki version, which, as I noted, gets extensively edited by those with agendas (and not just Mormons).

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180497/

      Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs form a clade distinct from that of West Eurasians and with coalescence time estimates varying widely depending on both the method of estimation and the number of assumed founders. Thus, the coalescence times ranged from 12,000–17,000 YBP to 23,000–36,000 YBP, times that are consistent with both a pre- and a postglacial population diffusion (Brown et al. 1998)

      Twelve thousand years is before Adam and Eve and Noah and the fictional Jaredites and Mulekites. The presence of Haplogroup X in the New World only shows there was a common ancestor who lived, as I noted, around 30,000 years ago--give or take a millenium or three; those depend on some assumptions, all of which are reasonable but still involve speculation--of both North American hg's and the Eurasian ones.

      Delete
  12. Part 3

    A quote from Chief Blackfish killing off a white skin people.

    "The Shawnees", Black Fish said, "cannot tell you that you are allowed to settle in the Can-tuc-kee lands. We have never owned that land. It belongs to the ghosts of murdered Azgens - a white people from an eastern sea. Their bones and ghosts own and occupy every hill and valley of the country. They protect the game there and have more and better right there than any of the Indian tribes, including our own Shawnee nation, because they do not need or use material food themselves and do not like it. Long ago our fathers and our grandfathers killed off the Azgens, but we now fear more the spirits of these people than our fathers and grandfathers feared them when they were flesh."

    ~ Chief Black Fish of the Shawnee, quoted from Allan Eckert's The Frontiersmen pgs. 65-66

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Shawnee had been in the Americas practicing their unique culture before your fantasy Book of Mormon Jaradites. Therefore your Eckert quote is invalid. See this study: Evidence of Ritualized Mortuary Behavior at the Meyer Site: An Inadvertant Discovery in Spencer County, Indiana (3,300 B.C.) http://www.in.gov/dnr/historic/files/hp-2010-2010ArchJournal.pdf

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbS10oEhw3c

      Delete
    2. One thing was interesting was that the charcoal they found was dated to 3300 BC. The cermaics though date to 200 B.C. – A.D. 400 Book of Mormon times. I will also add the Jaredites predated the Nephites. The exact dates of the jaredites is not known. The artcle in my opinion does not prove anything contrary to the Book of Mormon

      Delete
    3. Tapir

      Also concerning the chief blackfish quote it would be great if someone can find where Eckert got this quote from unfortunately Eckert is dead.

      Delete
    4. @david - Eckert made it up. He used poetic license to blend fact and fiction. The quote anonymous gave is not a credible historical source.

      Delete
    5. Anonymous said "The artcle in my opinion does not prove anything contrary to the Book of Mormon". It proves that your Eckert quote is invalid and cannot be used to support the Book of Mormon.

      Delete
  13. Part 4

    Chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce Indian tribe.

    When Chief Joseph was captured in 1877 he had ancient cuneiform Mesopotamian clay tablets from the middle east it was a bill of sale. When asked how he got this he responded

    The chief said that the tablet had been passed down in his family for many generations, and that they had inherited it from their white ancestors. Chief Joseph said that white men had come among his ancestors long ago, and had taught his people many things. His story echoes those told by Native Americans in both North and South America about white culture bringers.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Part 5

    James Adair

    In 1735 James Adair lived isolated among the native American Indians for 40 years. He wrote a book about their customs and practices of the Indians. In this book he postulated that the Indians are from the lost 12 tribes of Israel he stated 22 reason listed below.

    “1. Their division into tribes. 2. Their worship of J-hov-h. 3. Their notions of a theocracy.
    4. Their belief in the administration of angels. 5. Their language and dialects. 6. Their
    manner of counting time. 7. Their prophets and high priests. 8. Their festivals, fasts and
    religious rites. 9. Their daily sacrifice. 10. Their ablutions and anointings. 11. Their laws
    of uncleanliness. 12. Their abstinence from unclean things. 18. Their marriage, divorces
    and punishments of adultery. 14. Their several punishments. 15. Their cities of refuge.
    16. Their purifications and preparatory ceremonies. 17. Their ornaments. 18. Their
    manner of' curing the sick. 19. Their burial of the dead. 20. Their mourning for the dead.
    21. Their raising seed to a deceased brother. 22. Their change of names adapted to their
    circumstances and times.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. http://ohioarchaeology.org/documents/Lepper_2014-final.pdf

      Delete
    2. Tapir rider

      Again what you have posted supports the Book of Mormon.

      First of all James Adair book which was written in the 1700s can not be disputed. He lived 40 years with Indians during the 1700s and observed the traditions beliefs and culture of the Indians he lived with. Thats not what is being disputed.

      Bradley T Lepper who wrote the research paper which you linked to supports the Book of Mormon . He states the mounds of dirt were not for religious reason but were built as forts. The Book of Mormon states the same thing
      Alma 49:4 reads
      4 But behold, how great was their disappointment; for behold, the Nephites had dug up a ridge of earth round about them, which was so high that the Lamanites could not cast their stones and their arrows at them that they might take effect, neither could they come upon them save it was by their place of entrance.
      13 For they knew not that Moroni had fortified, or had built forts of security, for every city in all the land round about
      22 Now when they found that they could not obtain power over the Nephites by the pass, they began to dig down their banks of earth that they might obtain a pass to their armies, that they might have an equal chance to fight; but behold, in these attempts they were swept off by the stones and arrows which were thrown at them; and instead of filling up their ditches by pulling down the banks of earth, they were filled up in a measure with their dead and wounded bodies.

      Delete
    3. Anonymous, you are misrepresenting what Dr. Lepper stated in the link I provided you. Here are exact words from page 7 -

      "a military interpretation for the geo-metric enclosures of the Middle Woodland period long has been dismissed as implausible"

      "most modern archaeologists tend to be skeptical of interpreting the Woodland Tradition earthworks in general as ancient forts. Most of the enclosures would not have been suitable for use as forts and their frequency and size do not correspond to the prevalence and scale of warfare indicated by the archaeological record for this time and region."

      In your cherry picking, you have taken table 1 which is from various sources of the 19th century and claimed that Dr. Lepper said those things. He did not. He clearly explained himself, but you are twisting his words into what you want to see. You are involved in pseudoarchaeology.

      Delete
    4. Anonymous wrote "James Adair book which was written in the 1700s can not be disputed." That is ridiculous. The lost tribes of Israel theory that he believed has been not only disputed but thoroughly debunked. I suggest you study from actual scholars instead of reading propaganda from pseudo sources.

      James Adair as Anthropologist by Charles Hudson, Ethnohistory Vol. 24, No. 4 (Autumn, 1977), pp. 311-328
      http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/481385?uid=3739792&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104623977973

      Delete
    5. His book is a well studied and trusted book used by historians. If you chose to throw out the parts that the american indians practicted old testament laws and culture is up to you but I dont have to.

      Delete
    6. David said "His book is a well studied and trusted book used by historians. If you chose to throw out the parts that the american indians practicted old testament laws and culture is up to you but I dont have to."

      I gave you a link to a scholarly peer reviewed journal that explained why and what parts of Adair's book is trusted and used, and why the lost tribe theory is no longer valid. American Indians NEVER practiced Old Testament laws and culture. You wish to cherry pick whatever you think will support your flawed beliefs. Whatever it takes to maintain your fantasy is acceptable to you, but not to the rest of us. If you choose to throw out the life work of scholars who have advanced the truth just to maintain your fantasy, it is up to you, but nobody has to take your seriously. Some of us value truth over fantasy.

      Delete
  15. Part 6

    Bury the hatchet

    The Book of Mormon tells the history of a Lamanite people who no longer wanted to fight or kill others. They made this covenant to God to longer fight by burying their weapons in the ground.
    The term bury the hatchet comes from the algonquin Indians of the great lakes area.
    The first mention of the practice in English is to an actual hatchet-burying ceremony.

    Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, "I writt to you in one [letter] of the Mischief the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon's goeing to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal weapon with them."

    South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785
    Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase 'Bury the Hatchet"? ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It's certainly possible--and overwhelmingly likely--that whoever wrote the Book of Mormon knew about the expression and incorporated it into the mythology. It was, afterall, written "after the fact."

      In a word, it proves nothing.

      Delete
    2. For a 1830 plow boy thats quite impressive

      Delete
    3. Sorry David,

      That assumption rests on the claim that Joseph Smith (who was hardly uneducated; his mother and brother were school teachers) produced the Book of Mormon. You should study the history of how the BOM was produced (particularly the "head in the hat" part). Oliver Cowdery was certainly educated, and the "translation" of the Book of Mormon proceeded much more quickly once he entered the picture. There's strong evidence of a number of obvious 19th Century sources, and then there's the King James Bible. Errors in the KJV were "reproduced" verbatim in the BOM. Google up "Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon," and then there's this one. I stopped in to a conference right after these authors' presentation, and everyone in the audience knew they found a "smoking gun."

      http://askreality.com/hidden-in-plain-sight/

      Delete
    4. What you wrote is laughable.

      Delete
    5. I haven't even got around to discussing the "Book of Abraham" and Joseph Smith's "extraordinary" claim that it was written "by his own hand [Abraham's] upon papyrus." That story has been public knowledge for years, and my friend, Dr. David Twede, just published a lengthy account of Robert Ritner's debunking of JS's "translation." Dr. Ritner is one of the world's leading Egyptologists, and they all agree the BOA doesn't match the actual Egyptian writing on the Chandler papyrii.

      And then, of course, there are the charges and trial of Joseph Smith on charges of "glass looking." That one is even documented in LDS scholar Richard Bushman's book, Rough Stone Rolling.

      Best you find another client, Counselor. This one is locked in the historical hoosegow.

      Delete
    6. again the article you posted is based on opinion

      Delete
    7. David, lets try a little "reproducible" science involving linguistics (a subject I have some familiarity with).

      Take a copy of some Egyptian hieroglyphics that "say something." Show it to an Egyptologist (BYU doesn't count; those folks can't get hired anywhere else, seriously). Write down their translation. Show it to another Egyptologist, preferably one a long ways away. Write down what they say.

      The results will be essentially identical (and the "letters," whether hieroglyphs or hieratic script will be identified as the same).

      Try it a number of times; you appear to be the stubborn sort.

      That's not a matter of opinion; those are authentic and verifiable facts.

      Delete
  16. Part 7
    Bat creek stone
    The bat creek stone was found in Tennessee in 1880 by John W Emmert of the Smithsonian Institute. The Stone was thought to have a Cherokee inscription on it in 1970 the inscription was found to be paleo hebrew writing meaning for Judea. The inscription was thought to be a fake but the American Petrgraphic Services in 2010 did a study on the stone and found the inscription to be authentic.
    http://www.ampetrographic.com/files/BatCreekStone.pdf

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The Bat Creek Stone is a fraud.

      The Bat Creek Fraud: A Final Statement
      http://www.ramtops.co.uk/bat2.html

      Additional Digging Uncovers Source of Bat Creek Hoax
      http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/additional-digging-uncovers-source-of-bat-creek-hoax/

      Scott Wolter's falsehoods were addressed by scientists in December 2013.
      http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/newark-holy-stone-is-featured-on-america-unearthed/

      Delete
    2. According to American Petrgraphic Services the inscription is legit.

      Delete
    3. Scott Wolter is the president of American Petragraphic Services.

      Rather like the president of the American UFO Society claiming flying saucers are real.

      Delete
    4. david said "According to American Petrgraphic Services the inscription is legit." David, Dr. Frank Moore Cross was THE authority on paleo-Hebrew. He was one of only two scholars from the United States that participated in the Dead Sea Scrolls project. And Dr. Cross conclusively concluded and explained why the Bat Creek Stone inscription WAS NOT Hebrew from the time period it was alleged to be. I provided a link for you that exposes the shenanigans that Scott Wolter uses in his pseudoarchaeology. He does exactly what you are doing, ignoring facts and making claims without evidence to back them up.

      Consider what you are doing to yourself. You are trying to maintain a religious belief by twisting and distorting evidence and by misusing science. Nobody with an ounce of integrity and intellectual honesty will join your church by doing that. And if one day you realize that your arguments are based on flawed, unscientific methods, where does that leave your faith? It can all come crashing down on you.

      Your own apostles and prophets don't even speak up to clarify for the members of your church where the alleged Book of Mormon events were supposed to have happened. Followers of Meldrum and followers of the Mesoamerican LGT are divided against each other, while the living prophet and apostles sit on their hands with their mouths closed. A house divided against itself will fall.
      http://youtu.be/8Y7y-Xz_hz0

      Delete
    5. The writing is confirmed to be in Hebrew the question is when it was written. Dr. Frank More Cross gave his opinion stating that the inscription was written by Emmert in 1880. According to forensic science it is legit (American Petragraphic Services) When it comes to science or opinion I have to go with science. You guys are free to believe in the opinions. Below are the results of the findings.
      1. Our geological findings are consistent with the Smithsonian Institute’s field report written by John W. Emmert.
      2. The complete lack of the orange-colored silty-clay residue in any of the characters of the inscription is consistent with many hundreds of years of weathering in a wet earth mound comprised of soil and “hard red clay.” 7
      3. The inscribed stone and all the other artifacts and remains found in the mound with it, can be no younger than when the bodies of the deceased were buried inside the mound.

      I will answer the other posts tomorrow.

      Delete
    6. David, you expect us to trust Scott Wolter over Dr. Frank Moore Cross, to take the word of a showman (Wolter) who is on record for making fundamental mistakes.
      http://www.ramtops.co.uk/bat1.html

      "we requested an assessment of the Bat Creek inscription from Frank Moore Cross"

      "i: this sign is impossible as Paleo-Hebrew in the period 100 B.C.-A.D. 100, based on shape and stance."

      "ii: this sign is also impossible as Paleo-Hebrew in the period 100 B.C.-A.D. 100, based on shape and stance."

      "iii: This sign is impossible as Paleo-Hebrew in the period 100 B.C.-A.D. 100 based on the shape and stance"

      "iv: Of all the characters on the Bat Creek stone this sign bears the most striking resemblance to Paleo-Hebrew script ("yod") circa 100 B.C.-A.D. 100 (but not the second century of the Christian era)."

      "v: Despite problems with its relative size, this sign is normal for Paleo-Hebrew script ("lamed") between 100 B.C. and A.D. 100, but not for the second century C.E."

      "vi: "The sign is impossible for Paleo-Hebrew."

      "vii: Our comments pertaining to sign vi apply in toto here as well"

      "viii: "The sign is impossible for Paleo-Hebrew"

      http://www.ramtops.co.uk/bat2.html

      "Frank Moore Cross is recognized as the authority on paleo-Hebrew”

      David, you said "Dr. Frank More Cross gave his opinion stating that the inscription was written by Emmert in 1880. According to forensic science it is legit (American Petragraphic Services)"

      Legitimate science DOES NOT make the kind of errors that Scott Wolter is guilty of.
      http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/newark-holy-stone-is-featured-on-america-unearthed/

      "Wolter asserted that the Hebrew text inscribed upon the Decalogue Stone had passed the scrutiny of the skeptics." But that is a lie. "Not only has the inscription on the Decalogue Stone not passed the scrutiny of skeptics, no less an authority than the late Frank Moore Cross, Harvard University Professor of Near Eastern Languages, declared it to be a “grotesque” forgery. Jeff Gill has demonstrated that the archaic-looking Hebrew letters on the Decalogue Stone are based on the standard Hebrew alphabet used in the 19th century. It is a 19th century artifact made to look as if it were ancient."

      "After a microscopic examination of the Decalogue Stone, Wolter concluded it was not made by modern machinery " That is another dishonest statement by Wolter. "The back of the Decalogue Stone does, indeed, preserve evidence that it was made with 19th century technology.” “at least one set of scratches on the back of the Decalogue Stone actually was a small patch of grinding marks made by a 19th century grinding wheel."

      David, the Bat Creek Stone is a 19th century hoax artifact. That is not opinion, it is a fact. The inscription was copied from an 1870 book.
      http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/additional-digging-uncovers-source-of-bat-creek-hoax/

      "The text of the inscription appears as an illustration in the General History, Cyclopedia, and Dictionary of Freemasonry published in 1870."

      Delete
    7. Scott Wolter has apparently never met a "pre-Columbian-Columbian-forgery-determine-to-be-a-fraud" that he didn't like and didn't think couldn't serve his thirst for publicity.

      Brad Lepper has offered several links to Jason Colavito's site debunking Wolter's nonsense, and even offering an admission from Wolter that he doesn't possess any authentic scientific credentials.

      http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/scott-wolters-apparently-non-existent-degree

      America Unearthed star Scott Wolter claims to hold a 1987 honorary master's degree in geology from the University of Minnesota-Duluth.

      The last time the University awarded an honorary master's degree was 1956.


      Interestingly, the 2001 profile also contains Wolter's admission that he had no experience or training in examining ancient stone materials, and that his expertise was largely in scientific testing of concrete.

      Colavito has also exposed Wolter's claims about the Kensington Rune Stone. Jason's unquenchable desire to expose and debunk pseudo-science is incredible. I usually reach my tolerance level after only a few hours of shoveling through that smelly stuff.

      http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/scott-wolter-french-normans-carved-kensington-rune-stone-knights-templar-caused-cahokia-collapse

      The Kensington Rune Stone was unearthed in the late 19th Century (in Minnesota where there were a great many Scandinavian immigrants). Allegedly the Vikings--or someone else; Wolter often makes this into a "Masonic Conspiracy"--crossed the Atlantic before Columbus and reached Minnesota, but claims of longboats sailing into the Great Lakes amount to more foolishness. The Lachine Rapids made passage upriver impossible until a canal was constructed in the 19th Century.

      Delete
    8. again everything in the article is based on opinion

      Delete
    9. David somehow lumps all of these claims in the category of "opinion," but then insists the nearly three hundred year old writings of James Adair are "gospel facts." This despite the reality that evolutionary science was unknown at that time, and anthropology and archaeology were in their infancy.

      Delete
  17. Part 8
    The micmac Indians of South East Canada have a written language composed of hieroglyphic writing.
    Part 9
    The New Madrid Fault
    D&C 125:3 Places Zarehelma across from Navou Illinois
    The Book of Mormon says that their was a huge earthquake 33 AD at Zarehmla at the coming of Christ. That earthquake would have been caused by the new madrid fault that erupts on a regular basis along the Mississippi River which would include Navou Illinois.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Part 10

    Clovis Arrowheads
    The clovis arrowheads found in large concentrations in the east part of North America. Many believe the clovis arrowhead in america is linked to Europe because Europe also has clovis arrowheads another reason for the soultrean hypothesis.
    The Book of Mormon talks about large battles were tens of thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands of people were killed. If you look at some of the large concentrations of clovis arrowheads in small areas would confirm this idea. The large concentrations are east of the Mississippi River and would constitute Nephite Lamanite area. The map of clovis arrowheads are listed below
    http://pidba.org/content/fluted.JPG
    The examples listed are enough for now.
    David

    ReplyDelete
  19. Sorry Anonymous Dave,

    I'm waiting for Simon's reply (he may be working or on holiday). Right now you can put me down as saying "What tapir rider said."

    An earlier reply of mine disappeared into cyberspace, but the hard facts are that the "Solutrean Hypothesis" was utterly annihilated by the autosomal sequencing of the Anzick Clovis Child, and in truth, nearly all mainstream archaeologists and anthropologists were angry it was afforded even the "media lip service" it was since it's so utterly at odds with the known history of Native Americans.

    Your own claims are similarly unbelievable; you cite the "Micmac language" and it only dates to 1700 A.D. a thousand years after the last Nephite expired.

    Similarly, on the other end of the spectrum, you bring up Clovis points and utterly ignore the fact the Clovis Culture existed around 12,000 B.C. and that puts it a dozen millennia before Lehi set sail. Too, the length of its existence is debated, but it may have been as little as a few hundred years or as many as eight.

    All of the evidence you've cited such as the Bat Creek Stone have been proven repeatedly to be frauds. You would be well-adviced to do your homework better before you embarrass yourself.

    And I'll also point you to the comments in Jennifer Raff's blog regarding the "Gish Gallop." Your rhetorical techniques borrow heavily from that playbook, which a favorite tactic of Young Earth Creationists.

    The fact that you've chosen to assault us with a mountain on nonsense rather than a few sentences doesn't make it any more valid.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The reason why I brought up the clovis point arrowhead is its distribution matches that of major battles that the Book of Mormon mentions. Also many of the items I listed can't be refuted because they are facts ie James Adair Book about the Indians having old testament cultural ties. The hopewell indians matching perfectly the Book of Mormon time frame. Chief Joseph having cuneiform tablets. The new madrid fault, and haplo group x being only found on the east coast of North America not found on the West coast of North America nor in South America. The Hopewell culture popping out of nowhere being able to work metal then that technology disappears with them. Also its culture and haplo group x can't be explained by a asia migration. My question to you if the haplo group x did not come from the soul trean hypothesis where did they come from.

      Delete
    2. David,

      I just got off the Skype phone with my friend, "SL Cabbie" who's also intimately familiar with all of the apologetic claims you've repeated.

      He gets asked for directions routinely, and he suggested I point you to the fiction department because that's what you're writing.

      Your utter lack of understanding of the history/chronology of X Haplogroup of mitochondrial DNA is also on display. The two sub-clades of X found among Native Americans are X2a and X2g, and they do not indicate a connection with Europe or the Middle East, your claims not withstanding. Rather they show that the X clade had a "common ancestor," probably in Central Asia on the order of nearly 30,000 years ago. The descendants of that group split, with some migrating into the Middle East, and the other group moving into Siberia and ultimately entering the North American continent via the Beringia land bridge.

      Let me repeat one more point: Clovis points are between 12,000 and 13,000 years old. That's long before the Jaredites as well.

      And at least five to eight thousand years after the Solutrean culture in Europe.

      Delete
    3. David said "The Hopewell culture popping out of nowhere being able to work metal then that technology disappears with them."

      That is incorrect. Metal work with copper in the region of the United States predates the Hopewell by thousands of years.
      http://www.ramtops.co.uk/copper.html

      Your claims about metal with the Hopewell do nothing to support the Book of Mormon and here is why. The world's largest natural deposit of native copper was in the Great Lakes region, and that is the copper that we are discussing. It did not require any smelting process because of its purity. And smelting pre-dating the arrival of Europeans has never been found in the region of the United States. No iron smelting was ever done anciently in North America. You are grasping at straws and making associations where there is none. The Book of Mormon is a 19th century work of fiction and nothing more. The real people of the America's deserve better than to be twisted into a fabricated fantasy.
      http://www.pps.k12.or.us/files/curriculum/be-ai-sc.pdf

      Delete
    4. "The Hopewell culture popping out of nowhere being able to work metal then that technology disappears with them."

      I have no idea where you came up with the idea that metal work ended with the Hopewell. You need to get an education.

      http://kemperartmuseum.wustl.edu/files/spotlightMar10_2.pdf

      http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1945.47.1.02a00020/pdf

      Consider what you are doing. You are basing your religious beliefs on an incorrect understanding of America's indigenous peoples. You are making conclusions based on ignoring well established facts. When I point out published journals of science establishing facts pre-dating the mythical arrival of Lehi, you try to fall back to the mythical Jaredites to resolve the issue. But then you bring Clovis into your arguments, which predate the Jaradites by nearly 7,000 years. And you ignore science on that vast separation in time. What you are doing is not intellectually honest.

      Delete
  20. Here are a few more comments on Anonymous Dave's "defenses" of the Book of Mormon:

    There were no elephants during the years the Book of Mormon describes its events. The relatives of theirs, the family Elephantidae included mammoths and mastodons; these animals became extinct in the Western Hemisphere around 10,000 B.C. The only exception was a "Pygmy Mammoth" that survived on Wrangel Island (near Siberia in the Chukchi Sea north of the Bering Strait, a long, long way from the Great Lakes). Mammoths and mastodons didn't exist during the bulk of Native American history here, and they were certainly long gone before written language evolved.

    There are similar problems with the Solutrean culture that existed in France and Europe ~20,000 B.C. The distant across the Atlantic to North America is also immense, and there's the additional problem of the missing 8,000 years.

    And of course, there's the "missing DNA." The "X" haplogroup is the only Hg that shows any relationship between the New World and the Old World, and it's unreasonable to suggest that it would've been the only mtDNA strain that a mythical group of Pleistocene sailors brought to this hemisphere.

    ReplyDelete
  21. I will repeat what I just wrote

    The reason why I brought up the clovis point arrowhead is its distribution matches that of major battles that the Book of Mormon mentions. Also many of the items I listed can't be refuted because they are facts ie James Adair Book about the Indians having old testament cultural ties. The hopewell indians matching perfectly the Book of Mormon time frame. Chief Joseph having cuneiform tablets. The new madrid fault, and haplo group x being only found on the east coast of North America not found on the West coast of North America nor in South America. The Hopewell culture coming out of nowhere being able to work metal then that technology disappears with them. Also its culture and haplo group x can't be explained by a asia migration. My question to you if the haplo group x did not come from the soul trean hypothesis where did they come from.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The "Chief Joseph Cuneiform Tablet" was a new one to me, but to quote my friend above, "It sucks to be a shinola shipper in the Internet Age."

      The source for this story was Barry Fell, a Harvard marine biologist whose reputation wound up being on par with Scott Wolter's.

      Here are couple of links on how Fell fell:

      http://www.badarchaeology.com/?page_id=954

      Firstly, Barry Fell was a scientist. His training in marine biology meant that he was able to bring what he hoped was a measure of objectivity to controversial areas. However, his pronouncements were often uncompromising, lacking the circumspection and caution that is common in Good Archaeologists’ writings. His certainty in controversial interpretations often served only to enrage Good Archaeologists, making reasoned debate impossible.

      Many academic archaeologists were more than sceptical of Barry Fell’s claims: they were openly hostile to them. His claims for scientific rigour might hold for marine biology, but when it came to archaeological interpretation, he ignored the usual rules of evidence. Moreover, his publications were largely aimed at non specialists; instead of submitting his papers for publication in peer-reviewed journals (the usual procedure), he preferred to publish either in popular books or through the Epigraphic Society of North America, a society that can be characterised, not altogether unfairly, as being composed of his disciples. In other words, he shows all the characteristics of a Bad Archaeologist.


      Another:

      http://cwva.org/ogam_rebutal/wirtz.html

      What the Wonderful West Virginia article leaves out is that the Fell book has received widespread and illuminating professional attention. The consensus of recognized archaeologists and linguists is that America B.C. is a complete fabrication.

      A professional conference was convened in 1977 at Castleton College in Vermont to consider the "evidence" reported in America B.C. Fell was one of the conference participants. A verbatim transcript of the proceedings was kept (Cook, 1987: 85-96). After others of those present had expressed doubts about America B.C. findings, Fell responded - with vehement invective. He charged his critics with being too "damn lazy" to read what he had written, so "ignorant" that they "can't even hold a Phoenician inscription the correct way up," and with being united in a jealous desire to protect their professions' conventional wisdom against the conflicting theories he has been developing. Displaying pictures of petroglyphs he claimed to have found in American caves and deciphered in Celtic Ogam, Fell refused to disclose their location. "As long as I am an unpronounceable person, I am not going to say where they are.

      A 1977 review of America B.C. in the New York Times Book Review, by Glyn Daniel, Professor of Archaeology at the University of Cambridge, England, described Fell's contention as "ignorant rubbish," reflecting a "set attitude of mind" that is "almost indistinguishable from a delusion" (Daniel, 1977). In characteristic fashion, the Smithsonian Institute in Washington published in 1978 a calm, reserved, meticulously careful Statement regarding America B.C. Authors Dr. Ives Goddard and Dr. William W. Fitzhugh, of the Institution's Department of Anthropology, listed five different sets of basic factual errors and anachronisms in the controversial volume that make it totally incredible (Goddard and Fitzhugh, 1978).

      Delete
    2. David said "Also many of the items I listed can't be refuted because they are facts ie James Adair Book about the Indians having old testament cultural ties."

      No, they are not facts. James Adair's book does not establish ancient Hebrew cultural ties to the Americas. The only fact was that it was Adair's opinion. It has since been soundly refuted. His book contains many accurate and ethnographic writings based on his years of observations, but he was simply wrong on the Hebrew connection, and that is a fact now well established and accepted by all mainstream scientists. Only fringe groups continue to promote this nonsense.

      The Lost Tribe claim should be seen as part of a general 19th-century fascination with biblical history. But the claim is not real and it is not a fact.
      http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history/Modern_History/1700-1914/America_at_the_Turn_of_the_Century/Regional_Judaism/Peddlers_and_Frontier_Judaism/Native_Americans_and_Jews.shtml?p=0

      Delete
  22. You guys may disagree with the evidence provided. But one thing that it comes down to is the X Haplo group DNA. This dna is eurasian not asian. The largest concentrations are found in the great lakes area of North America (Book of Mormon area) and Above Isreal and the mediterranean which makes sense since Lehi was of the tribe of Manasseh of the Northern Kindgom Judah was of the south kingdom. Personally I don't care what you guys post the evidence is there. Good look in the after life.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA).PNG

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    1. David, you have not provided us with any evidence to even be able to disagree with. Your understanding of haplogroup x is deeply flawed, perhaps intentionally. It is in the same way that you disregard the vast timeline difference of Clovis from the fantasy Jaredites. When you are presented with facts, you claim it is just opinion. Then you try to present your opinion as evidence and fact. Isn't it interesting that you disregard the scholarly conclusions of Dr. Frank Moore Cross and at the same time you ignore the ridiculous claims made by Scott Wolter, even when I have provided you what he said and why it is wrong? You are a victim of pseudoarchaeology. Trying to promote it here will only get your ass handed back to you.

      Quit linking to Wikipedia for your false claims on haplogroup x and study from the sources that Dr. Southerton has provided in his blog posts on it. And your threat "good luck in the afterlife" is bullshit. The fact is that your Book of Mormon is a highjacked fabricated history claiming to be about and for America's indigenous peoples. They don't need your white god and nobody needs your opinion of the afterlife.

      You are on a very shaky foundation that relies on hoax artifacts, flawed and outdated opinions of James Adair and misinterpretation and misrepresentation of haplogroup x. That is all you have and all of it is fake, just as phony as your Book of Mormon and your con-man prophet Joe Smith.

      Delete
  23. Tapir wrote "Quit linking to Wikipedia for your false claims on haplogroup x and study from the sources that Dr. Southerton has provided in his blog posts on it."
    The link shows the concentration of haplo group x throughout the world which happens to be in the Mediterranean, Israel and the Great Lakes Area of North America. I’m sorry that these concentration of haplo group x do not fit Your theory. Maybe you should reevaluate your theory so that it matches the science or admit that there is no current theory to explain the isolated concentration of haplo group x in the east coast of America. I know how haplo group x got there but it takes belief, a contrite heart and sincere pray to figure this out which many people choose not to accept.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA)#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_(mtDNA).PNG
    What I find to be MOST IRONIC about simon sourthertons blog is that DNA/RNA is the biggest evidence of Gods existence in the scientific community. Science has no theory how the first RNA or very first cell came to exist. Simon of all people knows that even if you had all the amino acids and sugar molecule in one place they would not be able to sequence themselves. Man cannot even sequence dna or rna. Man has to cut and paste already existing dna together to get the desired dna.The simplest RNA sequence is tens of thousands of lines of base pairs. Simon also knows that biological life cannot exist without DNA\RNA. This will probably be my last post for at least a couple of days Take Care Tapir your anger and bitterness is quite evident in your post it bleeds through. Try not to be so angry.

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    1. Angry and bitter? No, I'm not angry or bitter. How very judgmental of you David.

      I have very little patience for a member of a church that teaches racism when he promotes pseudoscience to argue that it is real and then resorts to threats about the afterlife when he is losing in the discussion.

      David, you cannot deal with the simple timelines of Clovis in comparison to the LDS timelines of Adam beginning 6,000 years ago, the flood even more recent and the Jaredites after the mythical flood making them more recent still. That timeline doesn't cause you any hesitation when you look at a geographical distribution of the haplogroup x variants around the world and boldly state that it is evidence for your 19th century racist fiction. Get a grip on reality David.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa2dWCsvzmQ

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHXZ9QJVADg

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbS10oEhw3c

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e18uVzfL8C0

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdJyZClCYHQ

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQRsN5QfTpc

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y7y-Xz_hz0

      Delete
  24. Part I

    David, I'm guessing Tapir Rider has good reasons for his anger, and it's a holdover from medieval Christianity for it to be labeled one of the Seven Deadly Sins. The evil doesn't arise from the emotions (and it's a subtle form of abuse to "invalidate" them); it exists when those emotions are "translated" into inappropriate actions. For you to suggest his actions are inappropriate in correcting your gross misunderstandings is simply more nonsense.

    Let me try it one last time, because seriously, I know far more about molecular biology and genetics than you do, and I defer to scholars like Simon Southerton and David Twede (a PhD physicist with an undergrad in molecular) and Jennifer Raff and Deborah Bolnick. And both Simon and Dave appreciate my writing abilities and the way I can explain and reduce complex subjects so they are understandable to most ordinary mortals without advanced degrees in the sciences.

    The two strains of the X-haplogroup of mtDNA found in this hemisphere are significantly different from the European/Eurasian sequences. Please read the following, and I'm going to copy-and-paste some relevant extractions. I don't think you'll accept them, but there may be others reading this who find it illuminating.

    http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/34275/10106_ftp.pdf

    Haplogroup X Confirmed in Prehistoric North America

    I've followed discussions on this one since I first met Simon over a decade ago. He notes the claims involving the "Windover remains" were later withdrawn when subsequent tests showed the DNA was too degraded to offer any certainty, but the rest of this data is meaningful.

    The wide geographic and linguistic distribution of haplogroup X in modern Native North American groups (Forster et al., 1996; Brown et al., 1998; Smith et al., 1999) and the predominance among those of a characteristic mutation in HVSI of the control region not found in European or Asian members of haplogroup X (the G 3 A transition at np 16,213), imply that it is a founding Native American lineage.

    These lines of evidence, together with recent criticism of similarities between the Clovis and So- lutrean cultures (Straus, 2000) that were cited by Stanford (1997), strongly suggest that haplogroup X did not reach the Americas via an ancient European migration.

    We confirmed the presence of haplogroup X in one prehistoric sample excavated at a site on the Columbia River near Vantage, Washington and radiocarbon dated to 1,340 ± 40 years BP.

    To the best of our knowl- edge, this is the first evidence of haplogroup X in prehistoric America to be confirmed using both con- trol region markers and the diagnostic restriction site gain in the coding region. This verifies a prehistoric presence of haplogroup X in North America that is probably derived from a Siberian source population.


    Siberia, incidentally, is in Asia. And your claims about the Solutrean hypothesis arising from the discovery of X-haplogroup in North America is erroneous; that finding simply gave a bit of "lifeline" to the spurious claims of Stanford and Bradley. The two based their now-disproven hypothesis on superficial similarities between the flint points fashioned by the Solutreans and those crafted by Clovis artisans five thousand years later. They couldn't find a "Siberian source" for this technology, and as a result came up with the notion it arose from European contact. Unfortunately, they continue to believe their own nonsense and have advanced their agenda in forums where DNA science is less well understood.

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    1. Part II

      Now spare us please, the debate on whether RNA/DNA is "evidence for God." That amounts to an unwelcome and irrelevant changing of the subject (SL Cabbie calls it a "shell game," and I'm inclined to agree, and your lack of knowledge and ability to understand molecular genetics is on display above). If you want to argue that issue, take it to talkorigins.com and allow others to correct your misapprehensions. Some of us enlightened sorts are content with uncertainty, and it's only your fears that demand certainty where none can be offered.

      Delete
  25. I am confused - why is it that people keep insisting that mankind migrated out of Africa within the past 100,000 years when we have found bones all over Eurasia which are much older: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/a-skull-that-rewrites-the-history-of-man-1783861.html

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    1. That's an excellent question, and what the current scientific consensus holds with the "Out of Africa Theory" (it's a theory, not a hypothesis, because there's solid evidence supporting it, and nothing overwhelming to debunk it, the junks science crowd not withstanding) is that our species Homo sapiens is descended from a group that left Africa and probably migrated into Arabia around 70,000 years ago. There were earlier migrations of different species as well (and archaic H. sapiens existed in Africa much longer); as I understand it, the two identified species were H. erectus and H. ergaster which apparently gave rise to the Neanderthals. There's evidence that early humans and Neanderthals apparently cross-bred since Svante Pääbo discovered Neanderthal sequences in all humans outside of Africa (other explanations remain a possibility, and that one will have to be hashed out). Homo erectus is the variety of hominids that gave rise to Java Man and Peking Man. I'm unsure on the status of that one since the original fossils were lost in World War II. Okay, Wiki tells me that casts remain of those, and others have been found that date to around 700,000 years ago.

      Your source on the skull in question that "rewrites the history of man" is a British tabloid, and my experience with those sorts is that anything goes, and hyperbole and drama are the rule, particularly among the science writers. The only thing the date of 1.8 million years indicates is that H. erectus or an earlier hominid was possibly in Asia longer than previously believed--assuming the dating is correct, which is a huge assumption; to suggest that modern humans descended from these hominids isn't supported by the DNA evidence, and the fossil record shows both Erectus and Sapiens were present in Africa for eons.

      Please note also, that the article is five years old, and apparently nothing has come of these claims, at least to the best of my knowledge.

      Delete
    2. And after a bit more Googling, I found the following discussions of the Georgia finds:

      http://archaeology.about.com/od/dterms/g/dmanisi.htm

      http://johnhawks.net/weblog/fossils/lower/dmanisi/d4500-lordkipanidze-2013.html

      Nothing disclosed here changes my views (particularly about British tabloids and their science writers), but the Dmanisi skull is still linked with Homo erectus and the individual who found it, David Lordkipanidze, argued in 2011 that it should be designated Homo georgicus rather than being included with Homo erectus. That one will have to be sorted out as well; the individuals who offer such discoveries often want them to be seen as "unique" with the nomenclature identifying them as such. So we'll have to see.

      Lordkipanidze did suggest in the original article linked that the age of his finds suggested they may have been ancestral to hominids that later migrated back to Africa and gave rise our own species roughly a million years later. That one probably amounts to some probably over-the-top speculation, but it's worth nothing that idea also acknowledges that Homo sapiens arose in Africa and migrated out of there in the time frame suggested by the Out of Africa theory. Here's one more article on the subject, and it's clear that what is being discussed are events on the other of 1.8 million years ago, and not 70 kya.

      http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131017-skull-human-origins-dmanisi-georgia-erectus/

      The comments by Bernard Wood and Fred Spoor in this one are illuminating and offer a good overview of the debate.

      Delete
  26. This is from David the open ID is not letting me post it under David

    I was looking at one of the research papers that tapir posted and what I saw i thought was very interesting and also reassuring. On page two of the document it shows a hamsa symbol or what I believe to be a hamsa. This symbol is also found on the rattlesnake disk found at moundville. The interesting thing about this symbol is that it is used by Jews and Arabs. I get the idea from you guys that there was a huge conspiracy back in the 1800s to place a bunch of artifacts with ties to Jewish and middle-eastern language and culture among the hopewell Indians. I don't see that. But because it doesn't fit the current narrative and current theorist can't explain it it gets cast off as fake its a real tragedy.

    http://research.ua.edu/2005/12/mighty-mysterious-moundville/

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    1. The flaws in your conclusions, Anonymous Dave, are so numerous they are barely worth consideration. Neither tapir rider nor I said their was a huge conspiracy "to place a bunch of artifacts with ties to Jewish and middle-eastern language and culture among the hopewell Indians." We did note that there were a number of forgeries, some well-meaning "pious frauds," that were created to support the notion of ancient Old World/New World contact, and they have all repeatedly been exposed as such.

      In short, you misrepresented our claims and fashioned them into a straw man argument that you then attempted to debunk. That's been a typical tactic of apologists, and what is wholly unsupported by the archaeological record is any evidence of ancient ocean voyages. As I've noted, sailing across an ocean requires sophisticated navigational equipment (well beyond that of the Phoenicians who confined their sailing to the Mediterranean and down the west coasts of Europe and Africa). Developing such technologies required generations, and it remained outside the realm of possibility until the introduction of the compass around the 12th Century AD.

      As for the "Rattlesnake Disc," its provenance is unknown, which minimizes its usefulness as archaeological evidence. Most reports I read put its construction at around 1300 A.D. which is seven hundred years after the last mythical Nephite was slain. Nobody has "cast it off as a fake" out of hand; there is the possibility that Hernando de Soto's men carved it (far more likely than any mythical Hebrews), but even Native American origins would prove nothing beyond how innovative we already knew they were.

      And in claiming it was a "hamas" you would do well to note that there are four fingers, not the usual three, and the stylized eye is different from those associated with the Middle East.

      That, of course, never stands in the way of a good yarn by those among the "way out in the fringe" crowd. Check out this one.

      http://www.slideshare.net/rmdejonge/moun-dville-4

      Summary

      The Rattlesnake Disc of Moundsville, Alabama, tells the story of the Egyptian discovery of America via the Bering Sea by the kind Menakure of the Fourth Dynasty, and the subsequent discoveries of the four Atlantic crossings in the Fifth Dynasty. The Disc shows the people of Moundsville were ruled according to the ancient Egyptian Sun religion. A survey is provided of the history of the Empire of Atlantis (c. 2500-1200 BB) which consisted of its colonies North and South America. A detailed survey is given of the metal trade during this period, which included coper from Upper Michigan, tin, silver and gold from Boliva,, and gold from the River Amazone. Finally, a detailed survey is given of the history Egypt until sultan Bairbars (1260-12177 AD) of the Mamlukes Sultanate during the Arab Rule.

      This one is from one the "Believers-in-Atlantis" crowd, and it's utter nonsense to think Egyptians from around 2500 B.C. could've reached the Bering Sea by any means. A simple glance at a world globe will demonstrate that reality. Well, I suppose Von Däniken's flying saucers could be considered candidates, but people who make claims like that aren't going to be taken seriously.

      There's probably a reason you're not being permitted to post; discussing this subject actually amounts to a serious waste of time, and really the only reason I responded to your material is the LDS Church routinely uses such apologetics to deflect members attentions away from the fraud its founder perpetuated. I don't expect you to be persuaded, but there are others seeking authentic answers. You do not have any.

      Delete
    2. Dave, you are cherry picking and deciding it is a hamsa symbol because that shores up your faith.

      First, the hamsa symbol in the Near East is older than the Jewish culture and its meaning involves protection from the evil eye. The rattlesnake disc might have a similar appearance but you would be wrong to conclude that because it looks similar, its meaning is the same for American Indians. It is not. The hand and eye represents a portal to the destination where souls are striving to reach. It has nothing to do with an evil eye.

      The motif seen on the rattlesnake disc is not an isolated form, it is quite well known in many other forms of American Indian art. Here is a link you might enjoy reading (but please stop cherry picking).
      http://rla.unc.edu/personal/vps/articles/SECCv2.Hemphill.pdf

      If you could take a break from trying to find archaeological ties to the Book of Mormon, another fascinating read is this doctoral dissertation.
      http://rla.unc.edu/Mdvlfiles/phd/Phillips%202012%20PhD.pdf

      The Book of Mormon truly detracts from being able to understand and appreciate some of the most beautiful people on this planet. If you could stop grasping at straws for supporting evidence to that 19th century work of fiction you might be able to be inspired and gain respect for a people that are still facing racism daily. Mormonism only contributes to the racism, teaching it and promoting morally condemnable ideas.

      Dave, hoax artifacts were commonly placed in mounds in the nineteenth century for were many reasons. Some were done to increase the sale price of the land for the owner by drawing interest to it. Some hoaxes were done to try to promote the idea that ancient people from the Old World had been in the Americas. The hoaxes are well documented and studied. Elephant pipes, Davenport tablets, Michigan relics, etc. are just the tip of the iceberg.

      It wasn't so much a conspiracy as it was human nature to try to make other people believe something by producing evidence. And that is something you should be very careful of right now. Wayne May of the Ancient American Magazine has no problem claiming known hoaxes to be valid artifacts. Did you know that the LDS church commissioned scholars to study the Michigan relics? The Apostle James Talmage was involved in determining that those artifacts were a hoax. But Wayne May still promotes them even after the LDS church says they are not real. And some members of the LDS church even misrepresented scientists in a video, causing those scientists to publicly speak out that they do not support the position that video promotes. Dave, you cannot trust the claims of evidence being made by members of your church. If you care about truth, be careful not to cherry pick and be skeptical of fantastical claims being made by some members of your church.

      Delete
  27. This is David

    Hey guys (tapir concolor) I have another item for you guys to explain away. The link is listed below. The item is an earthen work in the shape of an oil lamp an a menorah.

    The lamp in Jewish history miraculously burned for eight days and then of course you have the menorah. Why would the Hopewell Indians make earthen works in the shape of a oil lamp and a menorah the two items go together extremely well.

    http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/efw.pdf

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    1. Hi David,

      Let me guess; you've been watching Jake Hilton's video about how Native Americans are descended from ancient Hebrews. I just sent my friend the Cabbie a link to that one, telling him he should think about going back to the church because it was clear evidence that pre-Columbian Indians had actual Masonic signs and rituals they must've learned from the BOM people. He said he was going to call the bishop and begin taking the missionary discussions, and that since he had never actually been baptized, all of his sins could be forgiven, including those heresies he learned from guys like Tapir Rider and Simon and others. He said he planned on becoming a god of his own planet, and he would make all of his former apostate friends his servants there, and they would have to worship him day and night. He also planned on having lots of Heavenly Mothers to raise up additional spirit children to populate the galaxy.

      Tapr Rider and I laughed out loud because we know what an evil jokester he is.

      In actual fact, you've been misinformed. The item is not an earthen work; it's an alleged map of a fort laid out with the Masonic symbols claimed, and you've misrepresented that it was published in a peer-reviewed journal with the claims it's associated with Ohio State Unviersity. In truth, it consists of scans from Ancient American magazine, Wayne May's "brainchild" that is nothing but a nonsensical fringe publication purported to offer evidence for the BOM. There is none, and in watching Hilton's video I note he also relies on the Michigan Relics fraud, which were debunked by no less than James Talmage as Tapir Rider noted above. Hilton, however, believes they are authentic, which is a pretty fair statement on his lack of perceptual acuity.

      Quoting from the source you provided, Cyrus Thomas, the director of the Smithsonian's Bureau of Ethology dismissed this information back in 1894:

      Cyrus Thomas, in his 1894 Report on the Hound Explorations of the Bureau of Ethnology, dismissed Squier and Davis's representations as being largely, if not entirely fictitious: "Some of the singular works described and figured in Ancient Monuments and elsewhere are to a large extent imaginary.

      Those of us familiar with the M.O. of the fringe folks (I refuse to dignify them by referring to it as "fringe science") have seen how known frauds are recycled over-and-over again with claims of their authenticity despite their being debunked repeatedly by sane and sober sorts.

      (end Part I)

      Delete
    2. Part II

      HIlton also begins by quoting from no less than the "Buckskin Apostle," Jacob Hamblin, whose ranch served as the staging site for the horrific Mountain Meadows Massacre. Hamblin led a group of Southern Utah Indian chiefs to a meeting with Brigham Young on September 1, 1857; they then hightailed it back to the killing fields and some of them participated in the actual slaughter ten days later. It stretches the imagination past the breaking point, however (and I concede you apologist sorts are particularly imaginative), to think they could've reached their destination 300 miles away and orchestrated the initial attacks on the Arkansas wagon train. The Indians served as agents of "plausible deniability" for the white settlers, including John D. Lee, who helped orchestrate the slaughter under the direction of William Dame and Isaac Haight. Prize-winning historian Will Bagley notes that it was only "the luck of draw" that had Hamblin escorting the Native Americans to Salt Lake and Lee arranging for white men dressed as Indians to "avenge the blood of the prophets."

      Curiously, Hilton makes no mention of Hamblin's role in this atrocity or how he helped Brigham Young shield the perpetrators from justice for 20 years.

      He also relies on that nonsense about North American X haplgroups of mitochondrial DNA being linked to European X hg's, and that one was debunked above (and elsewhere on this blogsite by Simon himself). The split between those two branches took place in excess of 20 thousand years ago.

      My advice to you is go have a sit-down with Kerry Shirts, aka "The Backyard Professor." He's figured things out and knows what it's like to have posted a lot of nonsense on the Internet defending LDS nonsense.

      Delete
    3. David, I recently mentioned the Ancient American Magazine and Wayne May to you. And now you respond with an article from that pseudoarchaeological source.

      First, Dr. J. Huston McCulloch IS NOT an archaeologist, anthropologist or scientist. He is a professor of economics. His opinion, published in a pseudo source demonstrates exactly what I have been cautioning you about. If you care about truth go to credible sources. Ask a scientist or an archaeologist. Do a Google search for Dr. Bradley T. Leper and you will find a contact address for him. Email him and ask if the oil lamp mound is valid. But only do this if you care about truth, because he will give you an answer that will not support your belief.

      Professor McCulloch tried for years to claim that the Bat Creek Stone was an authentic artifact. Professors of archaeology shot him down in flames in peer reviewed journals of science. Do you really think that he has truth over the real scholars in fields he is not educated in?

      David, you are being misled by some members of your church who don't care about truth or facts. They are promoting hoaxes and frauds to try to persuade people to believe in their church. Other members promote the idea of the Book of Mormon happening in Mesoamerica. The members of your church can't even come to an agreement over where the alleged events in ancient America happened while the prophet and apostles remain strangely silent.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y7y-Xz_hz0

      Delete
  28. This is David

    I know the Book of Mormon is true based on a spiritual witness from the Holy Ghost. I don't expect atheist or people who don't believe that God can answer prayers to understand this. Because the Book of Mormon is true. For me to believe that the non lds archeologist of their day (1800s) planted artifact of Hebrew and middle eastern culture among Native American archeologist sites just for the heck of it does not make sense. You guys can feel free to believe that the numerous listed examples found in the 1800s and 1700s are fraudulent. But as one who believes in the authenticity of the Book of Mormon with out any physical evidence there is no reason for me to not to believe the listed examples are not legit. I know I'm not alone in this because there are millions of members all over the world who also know of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon without any physical evidence. The most important thing we can do as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is to learn to recognize the whispering of the spirit to establish the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and to allow it guide us throughout our daily lives in making decisions and feeling the peace and satisfaction of living worthy of its influence. There are millions of members who can testify to this not all members can but I think the majority can. I know you guys think this is stupid foolishness and so on but its something I can not deny. I have had enough spiritual promptings and experiences that can only be explained one way. I don't expect you to believe this in fact I have no problems letting bygones be bygones. I wish you guys the best in your search for truth, knowledge, and personal satisfaction.

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  29. David, it is crucial that you separate hoax artifacts from your testimony. Believing that known frauds such as the Bat Creek Stone, Newark Holy Stones or the Michigan Relics support the Book of Mormon can very likely destroy your testimony. It will not hold up if or when you one day face the reality of those hoax artifacts. Some members of your church use those frauds to promote belief. Do you think that leads to finding truth and knowledge? You and those who do this are not doing anyone any favors. Belief in your Book of Mormon should not rely on shady, controversial and known hoaxes. It does not lead to personal satisfaction.

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  30. This is David

    Tapir I have talked to people about the below listed topics. When I talk to them about the items you listed I give them my perspective then I make sure that they know that current archeologist believe that the above listed items were planted by conniving non lds archeologist of the 1800s. Then I let them decide.
    Bury the hatchet ceremony, Bat Creek Stone, Newark holy stone, hamsa symbol found only in north American Indian artifacts, Michigan relics, azgen legend, Hopewell copper breastplates, Hopewell copper head-plates, Copper arrowheads, Hopewell copper knifes, Hopewell copper artifacts, Hopewell mound fortifications matching that described in BoM, Hopewell mound in shape of menorah, Hopewell highways industry and trade matching that described in BoM, Hopewell Indian timeline matching that of the BoM, mass archeological Indian burial grave sites indicative of large scale wars. James adair's book comparing north American Indians to the lost twelve tribes, Zarehmla is located on new Madrid fault according to what D&C125:3 says. New Madrid fault eruptions match that of the BoM, Big Spring Missouri is good candidate of Waters of Mormon described in BoM, mic mak Indian has a hieroglyphics type written language, chief Joseph had cuneiform tablets, North American Indian worship of J-hov-h, haplo group x dna highest concentrations found among Hopewell Indians north east American Indians and also found in middle east people to include the druze.

    There is one more thing one more thing off topic I really can't debate this because it is a legend. But in China there is a legend that they sailed from china to Fusang (North America) in 200BC there were Chinese style anchors found off the coast of California. They described large sequioa trees (redwood forest) there sailing ships were huge to compared civilizations of their time and from Kamchatka to the Aleutian island is only a distance of 50 miles. It gives a religious person an explanation of the Asian migration of North and South America from Asia. People who believe this bellieve Marco polo in this legend is said to have sailed to North America based on direction given by the Asian people. The article has a link below
    http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/did-marco-polo-discover-america-180952765/?no-ist

    ReplyDelete
  31. "I make sure that they know that current archeologist believe that the above listed items were planted by conniving non lds archeologist of the 1800s."

    David, your are quite confused. What you said is absolutely not true, nor have I even inferred that claim. The fabricated hoax artifacts were exposed by non-LDS scholars of the 19th and 20th century. Archaeologists WERE NOT the guilty parties of making and planting them.

    But the bottom line is that you have tied your testimony in the Book of Mormon to known fraudulent and hoax objects. Many LDS members do not do that. Some members do and they continue to promote nonsense just like you are trying to do. Do you even grasp what you are doing? Nobody with any intellectual honesty and understanding is going to want to take the Book of Mormon seriously when it is presented by nutcases.

    From DNA studies to archaeology to radiocarbon dating to all aspects of science, nothing can be found to give the LDS church reason to claim "See, science proves the Book of Mormon true." LDS essays at LDS.org openly state that no evidence proves the Book of Mormon. Dave, separate the hoax artifacts from your testimony. If your God told you the Book of Mormon is true that is one thing, but continuing to make ridiculous assertions about science and archaeology are not helping your church. Even worse, you are perpetuating a type of racism against the American Indians. The truth is that nobody came and taught them anything. Their accomplishments were their own, without any outside influence from Biblical people. Your brand of nuttiness robs them of their own accomplishments.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-sgVTgfdKg

    David, you have been misled and confused by people who don't care about the truth.

    ReplyDelete
  32. This is David

    I have a feeling that this information getting out makes you uncomfortable.The fact is it is becoming huge as more people learn about the heartland model. Unlike you i want people to learn all the facts then let them decide whether they believe it or not.

    I recommend you read this book it was written by a non lds author before 1923.
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Ten-Tribes-Israel-Descendants/dp/1178608034
    I also recommend you get this book about the heartland model
    http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-Book-Mormon-Americas-Heartland/dp/1934537470

    ReplyDelete
  33. This is David

    Tapir I just wanted to add one more thing. If all this information is what you say it is you have nothing to worry about. You need to relax.

    ReplyDelete
  34. David, I will not "relax" when racism is being promoted such as you are involved in. You are out of touch with truth and reality. Your church DOES NOT endorse the heartland model, and is at this time trying to disavow the words of Joseph Smith. It is only a matter of time before the LDS church decanonizes the Book of Mormon as the Community of Christ (formerly known as the RLDS) has already done.

    You are obviously caught up in conspiracy theories as you showed with your erroneous comment about archaeologists fabricating and hiding hoax artifacts in mounds. David, if you care about truth at all you will quit associating your "testimony" with known hoax artifacts. If you wish to continue to try to persuade me into your fantasy, all I can say is that I consider your nonsense in the same category as flat earth believers and Apollo moon landing deniers. In my opinion you are acting like a nutcase. Rational, intelligent educated people will not be joining your church based on this kind of nonsense.

    ReplyDelete
  35. This is David

    The church is full of intelligent educated people in the LDS church in fact the LDS church owns one of the largest private universities in the United states and it is also the largest religious private university. There are also many notable LDS Doctors Scientist and Physicist.

    http://www.mormonchannel.org/our-heavenly-fathers-plan?v=1834798902001&lang=eng#video=we-lived-with-god&cid=HPMO102714514

    Also I'm not trying to convince YOU you have already made up your mind I'm posting this for others to read.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Most members of your church DO NOT associate their testimonies with fraudulent hoax archaeological artifacts. Your "heartlander" crowd is a tiny minority among the members.

      And the entire total number of your church membership of all active members worldwide is far smaller than you might think. Best estimates place it at only 5 million. Your church reports its membership numbers of about 15 million based on all baptized members but that is far from the actual numbers who attend or even admit that they are LDS.

      Since you brought up BYU, you should know that their apologist groups DO NOT support the "heartland" theory. BYU apologists are almost predominantly of the Mesoamerican crowd. And they have seriously criticized Rod Meldrum's shenanigans.

      Your associations with heartlanders include the recent conference where Sheriff Mack (shoot the women and children first) of the infamous Cliven Bundy incident spoke.

      David, I have no use for your conspiracy theories or your ridiculous associations of the Book of Mormon with fraudulent artifacts. I have very little patience for the inherent racism found in your claims.

      Rational, educated and intellectually honest people don't buy into your snake oil sales pitch. You are out of touch with reality and truth does not matter to you. The majority of active LDS members are not like you.

      Delete
  36. This is David

    Hugh Nibley was a BYU professor and is probably the most influential LDS apologist who has ever lived. He wrote of the Hopewell Indians in 1994. Here is one of his quotes

    "A closer approximation to the Book of Mormon picture of Nephite culture is seen in the earth and palisade structures of the Hopewell and Adena culture areas than in the later stately piles of stone in Mesoamerica."

    Its currently being debated and unfortunately many lds scholars have to much time and ego invested in the mesoamerican model. Nibley was far ahead of his time and it wont be long till everyone else catches on. The scriptural physical geographical cultural and dna evidence is overwhelming.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hugh Nibley was not a prophet or apostle. The LDS prophets and apostles have been stating for many years now that the geographical location of Book of Mormon stories has not been revealed.

      David, your heartland theory is riddled with too many problems to count and as I pointed out on my last post, the majority of the members of your church do not tie their testimonies to hoax artifacts. Rod Meldrum attacks LDS scholars and BYU's science curriculum. Educated and rational members of your church do not agree with Meldrum.
      http://www.bmaf.org/node/359

      The fact is that members of your church are dividing against each other over this. You heartlanders claim personal revelation and tie your faith to known hoax objects while your living prophet and apostles remain silent. David, a house divided against itself will fall.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Y7y-Xz_hz0

      Delete
  37. This is David

    You always want to get the last word in. The idea that the church is dividing over this is ridiculous. Scholars are debating were the BoM geography took place they are not debating the authenticity of the BoM or its central message. The fact is 90% of members don't care. I have tried talking to members about this and to my frustration they don't care. That's why I have to go to this website because 95% of the people i talk to don't care

    Those who did care and were not founded on a spiritual witness of the BoM have been weeded out. If they would've waited a couple years and saw that the haplo group x dna was found in the North American indians and the druze that probably would have been sufficient to keep most of those people grounded. Of course its not to late for them to come back but I'm sure many of them have become hardened or ambivalent against the church or just don't care. Its kind of sad.
    The church has gone through periods of apostasy severe persecution (especially in the early days of the church) and controversy but nobody or anything can stop the church from growing. this is the lords work he will allow the church to go through ups and downs to test the faith of his sheep but it will continue grow until in the words of Joseph Smith the great Jehovah shall say the work is accomplished. Below is the entire quote its a good quote.

    "Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done”

    Those members who focus on controversial topic and not the central theme of the BoM will fall to the wayside or leave the church and the church will go on without them due to their own decisions. The church started with less then 50 members and now there are 15million total in every country and flourishing.

    The mission of the prophet and apostles is not to testify of the BoM geography but of our lord and savior.(if you were offended by our lord and savior to bad) I would love the prophet and apostles to talk about my pet projects (ie BoM geography) in general conference but frankly its just not important they need to teach people to live worthy and follow of the whisperings of the spirit and have faith in Jesus Christ. Many people have pet projects that they would like the general authorities to address but there not there to address controversial appendages of church history, or topics. When members have to much emotion wrapped up in the weeds of controversial topics they will lose focus of whats important. I try and limit the amount of time I spend on this topic its a hobby of mine but its not important. I know the church is true and it has nothing to do with my findings on geography. If you have felt the spirit before I would ask you to plant that seed and let it grow one more time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Good grief, David, the Druze date to the 10th Century A.D. which, if you'll do your math is around five centuries after the last mythical Nephite was slain. There's a small "founder effect" that created a genetic bottleneck that yielded the higher percentages of the X-haplogroup of mtDNA in that population. So what? The strains found are still not close to the X2a and X2e haplogroups found in Native Americans, which have been shown to enter this hemisphere 15,000 years ago. Voyages across the oceans by ancient people without generations or even centuries of seafaring are a technological impossibility. The maritime compass did not appear until around 1100 A.D. and lo and behold, three centuries later Columbus sailed across the open Atlantic to Hispaniola. Verbatim errors in translation are reproduced "word for word" in the BOM, which demonstrates it's a plagiarized fraud, no matter how much the Holy Ghost terrorizes you.

      And when we "pin your ears back," you retreat to nonsense about "Chinese claims"; shoot, if you'd read the article you'd cited you'd see that it dated to the 1500's, two centuries at least, after Marco Polo lived. And you can't even be consistent whether it was the Pacific or the Atlantic Ocean that was crossed. and seriously, if it was the Pacific, there's no way they could've made it to the Great Lakes region. Actually, the same holds true for the Atlantic; people weren't going to "sail up the Mississippi" in large vessels, and the St. Lawrence river was impassible until the Lachine Canal was constructed in the 19th Century.

      I really don't know what you're doing here unless it's an unconscious cry for help. Mormonism is a fraud, period.

      Finally, there is a lot of upheaval in the church, and nobody is agreeing on anything on what the "doctrinal lessons" should contain. BYU professor William Hamblin called that "appalling," but his apologetic crowd has been as marginalized as the Meldrumites. Meanwhile, legitimate geniuses like Pat Bagley (who calls himself a "retired Mormon") and David Twede are shaking the church buildings in Salt Lake to their very foundations.

      Start being honest and stop deluding yourself. Best way to do that is stop listening to used car salesmen like Rodney Meldrum. Of course the BYU apologetic crowd is equally lame; Hugh Nibley's own daughter exposed his use of manufactured footnotes to promote his prevaricated claims.

      Delete
  38. This is David

    Back to Geography

    Tapir you stated that BoM geography has not been revealed I take issue with that. Some of the exact locations have not been revealed but some have. We know that the exact location of the Hill Cumorah in upstate New york.
    We also know the borders of the Lamanites land through revelation in Doctrine and Covenant 54:8 is Missouri

    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

    D&C 125:3 states that Zarahemla is next to Nauvoo and notice that it does not say it is a New Zarahemla like Jerusalem and New Jesrulam in Jackson County Missouri but it says it is Zarahemla.

    3 Let them build up a city unto my name upon the land opposite the city of Nauvoo, and let the name of Zarahemla be named upon it.

    Ether 15:2,11 says that the Hill Cumorah is next to the land desolation
    the land desolation is within traveling distance of the land Zarahemla and the land bountiful.

    Joeph smith also wrote in a letter while on Zions camp traveling through Ohio and Illinois that they were traveling through nephite lamanite land

    11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did hide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. We call that circular reasoning, Dave. You proceed from the dubious assumption the BOM is factual and then use it to "prove" something.

      More evidence for the plagiarism charges I leveled above (and seriously, I'm not an expert on this stuff, and the real sharp sorts like Tom Donofrio have much further. They wanted to believe the church was true, but simply couldn't cling to their beliefs any longer):

      http://www.mazeministry.com/mormonism/holley/holleymaps.htm

      Delete
    2. This is David

      In my opinion your link only proves the heartland model and the BoM is correct. Joseph smith published the BoM in three months many have speculated on how Joseph Smith was able to do this especially if all of this was of his imagination or from another book but nothing has ever stuck

      Delete
  39. This is David

    As far as the dna goes once again I will put a link that you told me not to for obvious reasons.
    Its a map of the largest concentrations of haplo group x dna in the world. When looking at the the map and comparing it to the data the map is correct in showing correct levels haplo group x concentrations. The concentrations match the BoM history of North America and the middle east perfectly. On the North American continent the highest levels of x dna is in north east Canada. In the BoM timeline south of the Great lakes it says that the nephites were completely wiped out. Thus levels of x dna in great plains area is low compared to Canada's X level concentrations. In Alma chapter 63 it says some nephites migrated into the land Northward across the west sea (Lake Superior) and populating what now would be Canada. These nephites migrated about 450 years before the nephites were wiped out south of the great lakes.

    As far as middle east/Eurasia x dna it also matches the bible history. Lehi was of the tribe of the Menaseh Northern kingdom and the tribe of Judah was of the Southern Kingdom Israel. Lehi ancestors according to what history says migrated north to avoid the destruction of Jerusalem and invading tribes.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG
    The Canadian mik maq indian tribe has a written language similiar to hieroglyphics and quite a view characters very close to Egyptian hieroglyphics

    To be worried about a professor worried about the science program at byu is ridiculous. In church history half the twelve apostles were excommunicated that has not stopped the church from growing. When joseph smith died people said the church was done wrong again

    Tapir you need to except the facts. Stop living in denial

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG

    ReplyDelete
  40. this is david

    The last post was for concolor not tapir. the haplo group x dna match the concentrations perfectly just the nephites south of the great lakes were wiped out having low x concentrations. While those north of the great lakes were not wiped out having the high x concentrations and the nephite writing remained with the canadian Mik maq indian tribe many of their characters match the anthon transcript. Right there you have two matches the x dna concentrations and the mik maq written language.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry, Dave, but you're wrong about that DNA matching anything in the Middle East. Maybe Simon--who's a world class geneticist, and you're not--will reply if I can get him to stop laughing. Let me put it as some mathematical expressions: X2a ≠ X1*; X2a ≠ X2b; X2e ≠ X1*; X2e ≠ X2b...

      And that "Mic Maq written language" is a product of the 17th Century.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mi%27kmaq_hieroglyphic_writing

      And tell you what, why don't you tell your apologist friends that tapir rider and I are the "same person." It makes as much sense as any of the other apologetics, and I'm sorry if I intruded and confused you with the facts. Of course we are good friends who do have disagreements from time to time. He likes his eggs scrambled, and I prefer over easy.

      Delete
    2. This David

      To say that the mikmaq language is a product of the 17th century is utterly false This writing system, " Mi'kmaq called Komqwej-wikasikl was in use by the Mi'kmaq when Roman Catholic missionaries arrived". it says that in your link too. You also did not even attempt to explain why it has hieroglyphic characters similar to Egyptian hieroglyphics characters.

      http://collections.mun.ca/prayerbook/

      You can talk all you want about x2 and x1 but they are all descended from of haplo group x . The map of the haplo group x concentrations does not lie .

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG

      Delete
    3. Like Tapir Rider, I'm pretty much done with you, David (and I think Simon will be once I e-mail him). Nobody is arguing that X2a and X2e, the two Native American X haplogroups, are descended from the original. The split, however, occurred around 30,000 years ago, most likely somewhere in Eurasia. Some of those descendants arrived in this hemisphere via the Beringia land bridge, ~15,000 years ago. Others moved into Europe and the Middle East. The connection predated the mythical BOM events by tens of thousands of years.

      You've got a similar gap on the Mi'kMaq "hieroglyphic writing, only in the other direction. Per that link you seem determined to misrepresent:

      Scholars have debated whether the earliest known Mi'kmaq "hieroglyphs" from the 17th century qualified fully as a writing system, rather than as a pictographic mnemonic device.

      That circular reasoning you're engaging in may allow you to "span a gap of ten centuries," but reasonable scientists and historians justifiably scoff at such unreasonable--and unjustifiable--leaps. Snake oil salesman have long exploited the "mysteries of Egypt" (Joseph Smith did it with his thoroughly discredited "translation of the Book of Abraham from the papyrii and mummies acquired from Michael Chandler).

      In that respect, nothing much has changed in LDS history.

      Delete
  41. David said "Tapir you stated that BoM geography has not been revealed I take issue with that. Some of the exact locations have not been revealed but some have. We know that the exact location of the Hill Cumorah in upstate New york.
    We also know the borders of the Lamanites land through revelation in Doctrine and Covenant 54:8 is Missouri."

    David, your church today refuses to officially state that the upstate New York Cumorah is the location of the final battle in the Book of Mormon. Your living prophet and apostles WILL NOT commit to a geographical location for something as simple as that. The only thing geographically tied to the Book of Mormon is that the location in New York is where Moroni supposedly buried the gold plates and where Joseph Smith allegedly removed those plates from the ground.

    LDS scholars have even gone so far as to write that the references to "borders of the Lamanites" in the Doctrine and Covenants were simply Joseph Smith's word choice and not direct revealed words from god to Joseph Smith.

    David, the members of your church are in fact becoming divided in their positions concerning the geographical locations of Book of Mormon stories. And some of those members are not nice to each other. Rod Meldrum has been strongly criticized by LDS scholars (and for good reason), while he in turn disregards science and truth if it does not agree with the position he is promoting. And while all of this is going on your so-called prophet and his apostles allow members to bicker and argue with each other over the geography, never stating which one is right or wrong. The so-called mouthpieces of the lord simply allow contention and division in the so-called kingdom of god on earth.

    Now I'm about finished with discussing any more of this with you David. You disregard science unless you can cherry pick individual items to suit you. The best example of that is how you still try to argue haplogroup x. You ignore radiocarbon dated timelines and continue to try to promote known hoax artifacts, even the Michigan relics which your church found to be fraudulent. You are involved with some very shady people who should not be trusted. People who have misrepresented scientists. One of those shady persons has even employed a convicted child molester to promote these fantastical and false claims.

    If you wish to pursue truth you will have to begin by separating your testimony from fraudulent artifacts. And if you hold to your delusional course, more of the educated and rational members of your church will see how ridiculous your claims are.

    As a final note, David, your position is promoting a form of racism. You are denying the independent accomplishments of America's indigenous peoples and replacing their true history and ancestors with a fabricated story of Old World people migrating to America and making those accomplishments. Your theories rob an entire hemisphere's people of their contributions to the world.

    Your church is based on a 19th century work of fiction and your nonsense includes other 19th century books and ideas that today in the 21st century are known to be wrong.

    I worry about you and others like you David. You are disconnected from reality. The world saw this with Cliven Bundy and sheriff Mack. American Indians see this with imposters who claim to be Cherokee, etc.

    Concolor1 and I have tried to steer you into reality. We have provided many sources for you to see the truth. You need to open your eyes and wake up instead of trying to persuade anyone that your position is correct. All of this time posting with you should not be a waste. Wake up David, please!

    ReplyDelete
  42. This is David

    Tapir concolor attempted to explain away the fact that the mikmaq indians use a hieroglyphics style written language and some of their characters having a striking resemblance to Egyptian hieroglyphics. You have not attempted to explain it away yet.
    There is no radio carbon dating done that disproves the North American haplo group x subclades are not descended from haplo group x found in eurasia/middle-east nor does it show that they came across a Bering land bridge. The idea that the haplo group x came across a Bering strait land bridge is not supported by any data. Haplo group is not found in Asia.
    Thats the whole reason for the national geographic article entitled ""Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins." that Bro Simon Southerton tried to explain away. The fact is Simon is not any more smarter or knowledgeable then the anthropologists who contributed to this article. Simon has very convenient theories but he can't prove any of them. They are his BELIEF. In fact I have more evidence showing the authenticity of the Book of Mormon in the form archeological evidence then he does for his BELIEFS.

    I have to go by what these anthropologist say not what simon says.

    Also please email simon I served my mission in Australia we both have something in common we both love Australia. Its possible that we have met before wouldn't that be ironic. I'm also kind of suspicious of tapir rider i think that might be a user name for simon is this true tapir are you really simon if so lets talk Australian stuff.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David, your ignorance of science is astounding, and I'm sorry, absolutely pathetic. And yes, I e-mailed Simon, and on the subject of C-14 dating, the remains that were evaluated for that article on how "Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins" were shown to be around 24,000 years old. That timetable allows for the Berengia migration, and it effectively accounts for a population split that shows how Europeans and Native Americans have a common ancestor who lived around that time, your willful disbelief not withstanding.

      It's pretty obvious you simply don't want to believe the truth, and I have no doubt Simon will tell you the same thing. As far as expertise goes, you can look elsewhere on this blog and see Simon's contribution to the peer-reviewed Encyclopedia of human migration. He shared that material with me, pre-publication under a promise of confidentiality, and I offered a bit of editing, some feedback and observations, and asked what I felt were reasonable questions that may yet remain unanswered, but still aren't evidence of BOM authenticity.

      Radio carbon dating is not involved in molecular biology and DNA analysis; what the analysis does do is provide an accurate estimate of when changes (mutations) in the DNA sequences occurred, and by plotting those changes on a map, a reasonable picture of ancient migration patterns can be inferred. That's what the map above shows.

      Finally, here's an article on the X2a haplogroup and a Mormon Scientist, Ugo Perego, who's detailed how the X2a haplogroup entered this hemisphere--via the ice-free corridor. Science being self-correcting, however, the presence of the D4h3 haplogroup seems--to me, at least, and I believe tapir rider as well--in the recently sequenced "Anzick Clovis Child" to invalidate Perego's claims about D4h3 being confined to the west coast. There are also Hopewell remains with the D$h3 hg, which is further proof of the Asian origins of Native Americans.

      And honest, Tapir Rider is a thoroughly decent person and has shared fantastic research with both Simon and myself. He was as disappointed as Simon was when he discovered the LDS Church was founded on a fraud.

      Delete
    2. Addendum:

      Here's the link to the Perego article:

      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982208016187

      Delete
    3. David said "Tapir concolor attempted to explain away the fact that the mikmaq indians use a hieroglyphics style written language and some of their characters having a striking resemblance to Egyptian hieroglyphics. You have not attempted to explain it away yet."

      David, you are a victim of cherry picking and are being influenced by people who should not be trusted. In your enthusiasm of the Mikmaq you have allowed sensational claims to shape your idea of what is real. If you studied the topic of Mikmaq hieroglyphics even a little outside of the pseudo realm, you would not be making ridiculous claims and silly challenges to me.

      Have you read "Micmac Literacy and Cognitive Assimilation"?
      http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED267957.pdf

      Are you familiar with Flavins Corner?
      http://www.flavinscorner.com/fe1.htm

      Let's take this idea of writing even further, and outside of the geographical region that you are convinced is tied to your 19th century work of fiction aka the Book of Mormon. The use of the quipu in South America predates the Book of Mormon timelines. It was not a writing system, yet its use served the Andean peoples just as writing did for Old World peoples. Are you familiar with Plains Indians winter counts? Again, not a writing system but allowed record keeping. Have you studied Garrick Mallery's work that associated winter count symbols with pictographs? Have you wondered why no pictographs correspond to the Micmac Egyptian hieroglyphic theory promoted by Barry Fell?

      David, when you choose one peoples, whether Micmac or Cherokee and try to claim they are super special because they are the ones most closely tied to Old World peoples, and when you do this to try to convince yourself that the Book of Mormon is true, not only do you miss out on learning more about all of America's indigenous peoples, you put one group of people above another. That type of thinking makes me sick.

      Get a grip on reality David.

      Delete
  43. This is David

    I was thinking about this and I thought this was ironic. The same reason why national geographic anthropologist say that the haplo group x did not cross the bering land bridge is the same reason why BoM critics say the Bom is false. There is no DNA x dna in asia. There was no Eurasian dna in mesoamerica. But this has all been cleared up now. Joseph smith,Joseph smith revelations, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine & Covenants, archeological, cultural,DNA and physical evidence also say it took place east of the rocky mountains in North America.

    If you are curious about the Joseph Smith revelation look up Zelph that revelation came directly from his pen.

    ReplyDelete
  44. This is david

    As far as lds scholars BELIEVING that it took place other then the North East American continent. They lack the following evidence that the heartland model does have Joseph smith saying it took place in North America,Joseph smith revelations saying that it took place in North America, the Book of Mormon saying that it took place in North America, Doctrine & Covenants saying that it took place in North America, archeological, cultural, geographical and DNA evidences

    Simon is going to have to delete all my posts because the arguments are overwhelming in favor of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon

    ReplyDelete
  45. This is David

    The whole idea that the BoM is false because people are supposedly offended does not come across as a very scientific argument.

    ReplyDelete
  46. this is David

    As far as the church not officially saying where the Hill Cumorah is thats fine thats up to them. All I know is the churches official Hill Cumorah visitor center is next to the Hill Cumorah. Ironically enough thats also were the Hill Cumorah Pageant is oddly enough.

    ReplyDelete
  47. David said "I'm also kind of suspicious of tapir rider i think that might be a user name for simon is this true tapir are you really simon if so lets talk Australian stuff."

    David, wake up. I am not Dr. Southerton. You can read my story at my gmail link here https://plus.google.com/107573984212894845783/about

    You can follow my posts at this link https://plus.google.com/107573984212894845783/posts

    And you can visit my youtube channel at this link http://www.youtube.com/user/tapirrider1

    David said "The whole idea that the BoM is false because people are supposedly offended does not come across as a very scientific argument."

    David, that is not the idea or the argument. The reality is that the Book of Mormon IS RACIST and has no place in the 21st century. Your church's keystone scripture is at odds with human rights, specifically those of indigenous peoples as outlined in The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii/documents/DRIPS_en.pdf

    David, you are a product of your church's racist teachings, as demonstrated with your confused statement of the Book of Mormon not being true because people are offended. You are caught up in conspiracy theories, you ignore science unless you can cherry pick to bend it to your own ideas, you ignore the division occurring in your church, you are following individuals who promote hoax artifacts, even objects that your own church found to be fraudulent, you ignore the fact that your church no longer maintains that the hill Cumorah is the location of the final battle, you ignore the fact that members of your own church are not disciplined for preaching two Cumorahs, and now you speculate that I might be Dr. Southerton. David, get a grip on reality.

    ReplyDelete
  48. This is David

    Ok meso american apologist i mean Tapir it sounds to me that you are making stuff up or quoting unofficial websites. Saying that the church "no longer maintains that the hill cumorah is the location of the final battle goes against the BoM Mormon 6:2 says this

    2 And I, Mormon, wrote an epistle unto the king of the Lamanites, and desired of him that he would grant unto us that we might gather together our people unto the land of Cumorah, by a hill which was called Cumorah, and there we could give them battle.

    North america is the site of the Bom because the Bom talks about buffaloes, tornado's, seasons, and not to mention joseph smith and the doctrine and covenants also says it is in North America. And we also know that Moroni buried the plates in the Hill Cumorah were Joseph Smith recieved the golden plates on the Hill Cumorah.
    If you are quoting people who believe that the meso american model who say there are two Hill Cumorahs and that Moroni walked 2500 miles from jungle through desert to Upstate New York with 150lb Golden plates that is ridiculous. You are starting to sound like them. There is no scriptual, dna, archeological evidence or quotes from Joseph Smith that support that holy cow. I'm going to call you a meso american apologist instead tapir.
    The whole reason that idea came about was that the Bom talked about a narrow neck of land between two seas. The 1950s lds scholars at that time did not realize that that narrow neck of land is between two great lakes and not between the pacific and atlantic ocean. The term seas in middle eastern culture can refer to land locked lakes like the dead sea and the sea of Galilee. This so called division you talk about is between true believing mormons who go to church together and study the religious teachings of the Bom and scripture. Studying the Bom geography is fun.

    The items you call hoaxes are not hoaxes they are disputed. The only reason they are disputed is anthropologist can't explain why middle eastern and Hebrew artifacts are found in Northeast part of North America. Considering that there is Eurasian dna found in that part of america you would think that anthropologist would be able to put two to two together. As far as the mik maq language goes in the 1700s roman catholic missionaries saw the mik maq Indians writing their own language down. The mik maq book of prayers dates back to the 1700s that roman catholic missionaries copied from the mik maq indians own writings on to paper and again some of those characters are similar to Egyptian Hieroglyphics. And chief Joseph had cuniform tablets there are two many to list but you can believe what you want.

    As far as the BoM being racist people misunderstand the difference between the mark and the curse described in the Bom. As far as the church being racist they addressed that on the following link.
    https://www.lds.org/topics/race-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng
    If you want I can explain the Bom part of it but it would take some time to do that and I don't have time right now but if you want me to I will later have a good day.







    ReplyDelete
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    1. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    2. David, I am not a Mesoamerican apologist. You need to wake up. FAIR apologists ARE NOT excommunicated for teaching two Cumorahs. That in itself is absolute evidence that your church DOES NOT endorse as doctrine that the hill in New York is the site of the final battle. Face it David, the members of your church are divided against themselves over geography and your so-called prophet and his apostles sit on their hands and remain silent.

      As for the racism in the Book of Mormon, you seem clueless to what I am referring to because it is not about skin color. I gave you the link to my youtube channel and to my story at my gmail page. If you had read that or watched my videos you would know what racism I am talking about. Your Book of Mormon is racist in the 21st century. Simply read the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and read the World Council of Churches Statement on the Doctrine of Discovery. Your Book of Mormon is morally condemnable with the passages found in 1 Nephi 13 as I outlined in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa2dWCsvzmQ

      Your reference to the race and priesthood link once again shows how widely LDS members and the top leaders have missed the target on racism concerning America's indigenous peoples. I referenced that link in my story with this: "the general authorities are not addressing the Book of Mormon's racist doctrine. They have no choice but to ignore the developing problems with the Book of Mormon and indigenous rights because it cannot be fixed unless they renounce and discard the keystone scripture of their religion. Perhaps they never will deal with it but I did."
      https://plus.google.com/u/0/107573984212894845783/about

      David, you are misled by people who are not to be trusted. The artifacts you have anchored your testimony to are in fact known hoaxes. Even your church determined that the Michigan relics are not real, but you are following people who still promote them. The Bat Creek Stone, Newark Holy Stones and many other objects are nineteenth century fabrications. I have provided you links to credible scientific analysis of those objects. No reputable mainstream scholar of archaeology backs up Rod Meldrum's pseudoscientific nonsense. You need to wake up David.

      Delete
    3. David said "If you are quoting people who believe that the meso american model who say there are two Hill Cumorahs and that Moroni walked 2500 miles from jungle through desert to Upstate New York with 150lb Golden plates that is ridiculous. You are starting to sound like them. There is no scriptual, dna, archeological evidence or quotes from Joseph Smith that support that holy cow. I'm going to call you a meso american apologist instead tapir."

      "This so called division you talk about is between true believing mormons who go to church together and study the religious teachings of the Bom and scripture. Studying the Bom geography is fun."

      This one is too much fun to let go unanswered. David, your own contradiction made me chuckle. There is no division among members BUT Mesoamerican apologists say "ridiculous" things. There is no division among members BUT you call me a Mesoamerican apologist as if it is a pejorative. How can you use other members that go to church together with you as a type of insult toward me while insisting there is no division among members? Hmmm.

      The truth is that those Mesoamerican apologists have suspected that I am Rod Meldrum because I throw Joseph Smith's own words at them too. They don't like it when I reference his letter to Emma, telling her that the mounds in Illinois were built by Nephites. They don't like it when I tell them that the alleged revelation in D&C 28 to take the Book of Mormon to the "Lamanites" did not result in Oliver Cowdery visiting Guatemala. David, all it takes is to point out to each side what the other is teaching and the division becomes crystal clear.

      So who do you think I am, David? First you suspected I was Simon Southerton, now you call me a Mesoamerican apologist. Folks at FAIR have told me I sound like Rod Meldrum. No division among your church's members over geography? David, you are sailing down the river of denial.

      Delete
  49. This is David

    Meso American apologist when you say American Indians are offended by the BoM could you mention some individual people who are offended you want to make this sound like this is a huge issue like there is a huge divisional collapse over BoM Geography. From my experience people who get offended are easily offended.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Google Thomas Murphy for starters. Here, I'll do your work for you.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shizFlEZ2ko

      I've met and corresponded with him, and he's descended from Shoshone Indians. I remember his saying "When white men want to act out, they dress up as Indians." He mentioned the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and I dodged that bullet because I didn't have any relatives involved, but he nailed me with the Boston Tea Party.

      Murphy is a friend of Simon's, and he was threatened with a church court around a dozen years ago. Given the publicity at the time, I'd say that qualifies as a huge issue.

      And you owe Tapir Rider an apology for that straw man nonsense, suggesting he's a "Meso Ameican apologist." Both of us have concluded there's overwhelming proof both interpretations of the setting for the BOM are nonsense because the book itself is badly written 19th Century fiction.

      Delete
    2. David said "From my experience people who get offended are easily offended".

      Well David, your experience is either extremely limited or else you are asleep. You need to wake up.

      Delete
  50. This is David

    I would like to thank tapir and concolor and any meso american apologist you guys have really helped me develop my discussion points and figure out which parts needed better explanation and research. I have some very strong solid points that I now know how to defend. I love you guys you guys are awesome. To my brother simon southerton its never to late to find your way back to the fold. I know you once believed. If you find your self unhappy look towards the core gospel message. The spirit brings happiness and meaning to all those who struggle. When my 38 year old brother died of a heart attach I had once again and again felt the undeniable witness of the spirit bring solace to my hurting heart. I saw the lord and the gospel message help his wife and his three sons (when i say saw i don't mean i saw the lord with my eyes but in the same way the lord helped me) Its not going to be easy but it will be worth it.
    An ancient hopewell/nephite/BoM prophet named Alma said this

    41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.

    42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white(the word white does not refer to race), yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.

    Its not to late for any of you guys millions of members have tasted of the fruit and can testify of the joy it has brought to their lives. You guys can mock all you want its ok you will not hurt my feelings I'm secure in what I believe and what I know. My only wish is that everyone could feel of the love of God and their Savior. There are no trials and there is no hurt when handled correctly will not have eternal rewards.

    I'm done now except to leave a quote from Moroni.

    Moroni said this

    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

    This Hopewell prophet knew what he was talking about. In the Bom he was referred to as a Nephite.

    I don't see myself posting much more you guys can have at it.




    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Right. The rest of the world recognizes what you're doing as "cemetery whistling."

      You better stay out of your mother's cosmetic bag. A pig with lipstick is a pig nevertheless.

      On the post I deleted, I mentioned the Jaredites. You should include them. Somebody just sent me this link...

      http://johnvigor.blogspot.com/2014/11/first-americans-were-submariners.html

      Jaredites were mentioned in the BOM, so this has to be true as well, right?

      Delete
    2. David said "I'm done now except to leave a quote from Moroni."

      David, Mormons tell people to pray to know if the Book of Mormon is true. I cannot do this. I refuse to pray to a God who justifies the killing of women and children. Why would I wish to pray to know that these type of atrocities were the will of God? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jbxPgelF1c

      Why would I want to convince myself that God approves of murder? That I cannot do.
      https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130929171513AAllH3V

      Would anyone use the Book of Mormon and prayer to convince themselves that Jews deserved the Holocaust? The Book of Mormon has similar things about Jews. A disturbed mind could use it for that reason as well.

      I cannot in good consience ask in prayer if the ancestors of the American Indian were degenerates that had turned wicked and fell from a civilized condition to become an idle, loathsome, dark, filthy and idolatrous people. To do so ignores all of the significant contributions to the world that a most remarkable people have made with agriculture, medicine, cultural beauty, music etc., things which are not even mentioned in the Book of Mormon.

      Delete
  51. This is David,

    Going against my best reasoning I feel the need to post again. I'm going to give concolor and tapir more reasons to disdain the Book of Mormon. Yes the Book of Mormon talks about Jews being a hated people. It also says the American Indians will be smitten by Europeans. It talks about wars in which millions of people to include women and children are killed. Its talks about whole groups of people being lazy unproductive and evil. It talks about righteous people becoming prideful and evil. It talks about curses put upon lamans progenitors. It talks about l amanitesmarking themselves to separate themselves from the Nephites. It mentions a righteous people composed of hundreds of thousands of people being wiped out by another tribe due to their own wickedness. The Book of Mormon even mentions torture. The Book of Mormon talks about HATE.
    Yes tapir and concolor the Book of Mormon talks about all this and more and why does it talk about all this for one simple reason. ITS ABOUT HUMAN HISTORY.
    All the things mentioned above have happened throughout human HISTORY.

    You two are the epidemy of the glass half empty. You Cherry pick only the hate found in the Book of Mormon. You fail to realize the beautiful message found inside about love, peace, joy, happiness, redemption and God's struggle against free agency to have his children live a life where they love there fellow brothers and sisters and miracle that happens to those who do. This is the message you guys fail to see time after time.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David, the Biblical genocide against the Canaanites did not really happen. It is a myth. But the horrendous and morally condemnable events of the past 500 years in America have been real and atrocities against American Indians continue right now.

      The Book of Mormon is the only canonized scripture in the world that contains history in the Americas beginning with Columbus and attributes the horrors that have happened to America's indigenous peoples as the result of them being cursed and suffering the wrath of god. It is the only canonized scripture that teaches that god's spirit was with Columbus and the explorers and colonizers. That teaching IS NOT history, it is a dangerous lie.

      What you claim to be a beautiful message about redemption is nothing but your religious belief that a most incredible people need to discard who they are and assimilate into your religion's fantasy. You fail to see how sick and disgusting such a teaching is. You and those you associate with promote an alternate reality, using known fraudulent artifacts, misrepresentations of scientific publications and misquoting of scientists. There is no more room in the 21st century for your church's racist teachings as they are found in the Book of Mormon.

      We can continue to correspond privately on this matter if you wish. Email me at tapirrider1@gmail.com

      Delete
    2. This David

      Tapiri we are never going to see eye to eye on this have a good life though.

      Delete
    3. David said "Tapiri we are never going to see eye to eye on this have a good life though."

      David, your wrong to use the word "never" because In years past, I did see eye to eye with you but then I woke up. I have had a good life. I am getting old now. My life was always best when truth was what mattered most. Fantasy never brought me lasting happiness. If you come to a point in your life where truth matters, email me.

      Delete
  52. David,

    How about I write a story about the events of World War II, only I'm going to engage in a bit of deception, and claim that it was written beforehand, say 1920. I'll speak of Hitler's rise to power, how Chamberlain tried to appease him, and how providentially, Winston Churchill appeared in the U.K. and was a heroic leader (chosen by God!), and similarly, Franklin D. Roosevelt, strode onto the American political stage.

    I'm going to recount all those events accurately, claim the gift of prophesy given to me by my ancestors, and then I'm going to tell a story about my grandfather, Rufus B. Concolor, Sr. who made these prophesies and inscribed them on a set of metal plates that I copied those stories from (in the 1960's). I don't have the metal plates, but I have a number of members of my family that will claim that Gramps was an honest man even though nobody remembers him making these claims. And of course, while I don't actually have a record of counterfeiting and fraud, if I did, wouldn't you suspect that I was working another scam?

    Go review the history of Joseph Smith and his arrest record. Not to mention those stories of his really young "wives" that are getting a lot of attention right now.

    And I'm sorry, I don't see any love and redemption in the wholesale slaughter of people, period; oh, wasn't the the "white er pure and delightsome Nephites" who were killed off?

    ReplyDelete
  53. This is David

    Concolor if you can write a history about a civilization that lasted a thousand years. Get thousands of people to follow you and belief the history you wrote as truth and then give your life for it please let me know. Your written history would also have to grow its following to millions of people after you die and get its millions of followers to dedicate the time talents and money to its proliferation. Good luck.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ah, trying to scare me with "Great Nibley's Ghost" now, are we?

      Read his daughter Martha's account of him and his unethical and dishonest use of endnotes and footnotes as well as other critics' analysis of his use of ad hominem attacks and straw man arguments. HIs attack on Fawn Brodie--whom Richard Bushman now quotes extensively--was particularly "unscholarly." I hate to break the news to you, but Nibley was a nobody outside of Utah and the BYU campus.

      Above all, don't look into the thousands of changes that were made to "the most correct book on Earth," And keep listening to what the non-scientists like Rod Meldrum and Wayne May say about DNA and Native Americans. They're clearly more educated on the subject of molecular biology than scientists like Simon Southerton or David Twede.

      Speaking of Dr. Twede, he tells me he purposely wrote his novel The Second Annointing in the same amount of time it took Smith, Cowdery, et al (there's strong evidence of contributions plagiarized from others as well) to produce the BOM. He did that while working as a full-time physicist (his undergrad is in molecular biology, BTW).

      Delete
  54. This is David

    Concolor forgot one thing.
    The choice of redemption is optional. Anybody who has read the BoM knows that not everybody chose to live a life patterned after the savior. Which is quite apparent in today's world

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David,

      All I know about Jesus is I'm not Him, and seriously, the Mormon Jesus isn't all that consistent. First He's a racist, then He isn't; then He commands Joseph Smith and his followers to practice polygamy, and then He tells them not to.

      Guy is way more fickle than a lot of the ladies I used to date.

      Delete
  55. Excellent analysis. There are some reasons to think that northeast North America had some early migrations from Eurasia. I put this on the blog:

    http://dnaamerica.blogspot.com/

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I'll let Simon answer your hypothesis if he's so inclined. Bear in mind, however, that your suggestion requires an ancient transoceanic crossing from Europe to North America, and that's wholly improbable. Dennis Stanford and Bruce Bradley have wound up marginalized because of their claims about the Solutreans. Right now the evidence--from autosomal DNA--is showing three probable migrations from Central Asia (it's been shown Eastern Asian DNA isn't that closely related to Native American DNA) with the latter two occurring in the northern latitudes and most Native Americans descended from a single migration. The "Anzick Clovis Child" evidence has strongly validated that view. Genetic drift and the "Founder Effect" can explain the higher concentrations of X2a in northeastern NA (and the North American X hg's are uncommon throughout Native American populations). Note too, that very ancient skeletons in British Columbia were shown to have mtDNA haplogroup M. M is a very old hg and found in Central Asia.

      http://public.wsu.edu/~bmkemp/publications/pubs/Malhi_et_al_2007.pdf

      http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/worldmtdnamap.pdf

      Delete
    2. This is David

      If you want to know how haplo group x arrived in North East America. Read the 1Nephi in the Book of Mormon it explains how why haplo group landed in North America.
      This is supported by dna and disputed archeological items found from the Hopewell Indians. Some of these items are the Michigan relics, the Mik Maq written language having characters close to Egyptian Hieroglyphics, the bat creek stone, Hopewell Indian rise and disappearance timeline matching the Book of Mormon, Hopwell indians artifacts that have symbols similar to the jewish hamsa symbol, algonquin indian trinbes oral histories saying they came from the east, Hopewell Indians use of head plates and breast-plates, chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce tribe having cuneiform tablets, and the newark holy stones, there is much more but this is what comes to mind.
      Some of the archeological items are disputed by anthropologist and archeologist because it does support long held beliefs of world migration but that does not matter because these items are supported by dna haplo group x concentrations. Also there are no reasonable theories as to why 1800 century non lds farmers or archeologist would plant such items.

      Delete
    3. David said "If you want to know how haplo group x arrived in North East America. Read the 1Nephi in the Book of Mormon it explains how why haplo group landed in North America.
      This is supported by dna and disputed archeological items found from the Hopewell Indians. Some of these items are the Michigan relics, the Mik Maq written language having characters close to Egyptian Hieroglyphics, the bat creek stone, Hopewell Indian rise and disappearance timeline matching the Book of Mormon, Hopwell indians artifacts that have symbols similar to the jewish hamsa symbol, algonquin indian trinbes oral histories saying they came from the east, Hopewell Indians use of head plates and breast-plates, chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce tribe having cuneiform tablets, and the newark holy stones, there is much more but this is what comes to mind.
      Some of the archeological items are disputed by anthropologist and archeologist because it does support long held beliefs of world migration but that does not matter because these items are supported by dna haplo group x concentrations. Also there are no reasonable theories as to why 1800 century non lds farmers or archeologist would plant such items."

      David, everything you just said is bullshit. You are an embarrassment to the thinking members of your church. If you ever decide that truth matters to you, email me.

      Delete
    4. This is David

      Tapir that is a well thought out scientific reply. "Thats B&$%^*@#& ". That's not a very good argument.

      Delete
  56. This is David

    Brother Simon Southerton your hiatus has been long enough its time to come back to were you belong the time has come God is waiting.

    ReplyDelete
  57. This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
  58. David, you need to stop saying that the Michigan relics are real. They do not support the Book of Mormon. You are an embarrassment to the thinking members of your church.

    Read the words of LDS Scientist and Apostle James Talmage in the October 1911 Improvement Era Magazine.
    https://archive.org/stream/improvementera14012unse#page/n7/mode/2up

    "As a matter of fact, however, the Michigan "relics" are forgeries, and the seeming confirmation of the Book of Mormon story is fictitious and false."
    https://archive.org/stream/improvementera14012unse#page/n13/mode/2up

    You are likewise wrong about your other statements. You have intentionally not responded to sources and links I have provided, then you turn around and say the very same ridiculous things that I have previously replied to you about.

    If you ever decide that truth matters to you, if you ever wake up and open your eyes, email me. But if you are simply going to continue saying the same things even after you were shown to be wrong, then yes, you are full of bullshit.

    ReplyDelete
  59. This is David

    Part 1

    Tapir I got some more things for you. The more research I do the more evidence I find. In one of the links you provided
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1945.47.1.02a00020/pdf
    it shows a Jewish hamsa symbol. In another picture it shows another hand with a symbol in its not the
    the all seeing eye it is another symbol. a cross were the arms are of equal length.
    In jewish culture the eye is the all seeing eye of god. I believe we can derive the equilateral cross as having religious meaning because in the Mik maq
    Indian written language their symbol for holy is an equilateral cross in a circle with a cross on top. Whats also interesting the early Greeks who have a high
    haplo group concentration also use a equilateral x for their church. The Egyptian gnostic christian also use the same symbol on their cross. This is supported by
    silas J rand
    He lived with the mik maq Indians for 40 years. He said this of their written language the Greek letters do not transfer over
    but you can look on page xxxv of his book

    https://archive.org/stream/cihm_12305#page/n13/mode/2up

    "They have a dual number like the Greek.
    They express the different persons and numbers by the ter-
    mination of the verb, and like the Greek have a great number
    of tenses. There are also some words in the language which
    resemble Greek. The Micmac word Ellcnu, an Indian, is
    not very different from "E\\i;i', a Greek. FJlenK rsit (" He
    speaks Micmac ") is strikingly like the Greek kWijin^ti (" He
    speaks Greek "). But in other respects the language resembles
    the Hebrew, especially in the suffixes b)' which the pronouns
    are connected in the accusative case with the verb.


    Listed is another example from James Adair showing the link between the North American Indians and and that part of the world

    Adair and others provide lists of words that are supposedly similar in some Indian
    languages to Hebrew words. For example, Shilu in Indian is supposedly the same as
    Shiloh in Hebrew; the Indian word for father is Abba; the word for “waiter of the high
    priest” is Sagan in both Indian and Hebrew; the word for man in Indian is Ish or Ishie.
    A number of other “similar” words are given by Adair and others.

    James Adair along with Ethan Smith each wrote a book about this subject giving many examples.


    William Penn the founder of Pennsylvania gave a supporting comment about the indians having Middle eastern ties
    William Penn wrote to a friend" “I found them [the Indians of
    the eastern shore of North America] with like· countenances with the Hebrew race; and
    their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in
    Duke’s place, or Barry street, in London, when he sees them.”

    Once more this is also supported the Mik maq written language having Egyptian hieroglyphic characters.

    The mik maq having ties to this part of the world is also supported by you know what DNA of course haplo group x.








    ReplyDelete
  60. This is David Part 2
    Concerning the Michigan relics whether its fake or not it does not matter the dna cultural some of the other archeological finds and language are sufficient to prove my case. But I will tell you why I think its real. I believe James Scotford would not have the slightest clue what cuneiform is much less be able to forge cuneiform tablets or forge Egyptian hieroglyphics on copper tablets. When Chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce tribe was found with cuneiform tablets he said the tablets were passed down from his forefathers not bought from James Scotford. Some lds church leaders in the early 1900s concluded the Michigan relics are fake. With today's current dna archeological cultural archeological finds it would be worth their time to take a second look.

    Concerning the bat creek stone the archeologist who found the stone concluded that that the inscription was Cherokee. The stone was
    looked at again in 1970 cyrus Gordon found the inscription to be paleo Hebrew. You posted at one time that an expert said it was not paleo Hebrew.I have looked at the inscription characters and the paleo hebrew characters. It does not take an expert to conclude that the bat creek stone characters are basically the exact same as the paleo Hebrew characters. I can see that with mine own eyes along not to mention experts who concluded the exact same thing.
    When translated it says for Judea
    What is interesting is in the Book of Mormon Alma 56 helaman sends the two-thousand stripling warriors to successfully stop the city of Judea from being taken
    over by the laminates. Its possible that one of the two thousand stripling made that inscription on the stone.
    This history is also supported by the bury the hatchet saying. The saying comes from the Algonquian Indians. When they make peace they bury their tomahawks in the ground.
    The first time this was done was by the fathers of the two thousand stripling warriors. They covenanted with God that they would no longer spill the blood of others and buried their weapons of war in the ground.
    pilgrims witnessed the Algonquian peace ceremonies they wrote
    Years before he gained notoriety for presiding over the Salem witch trials, Samuel Sewall wrote in 1680, "I writt to you in one [letter] of the Mischief
    the Mohawks did; which occasioned Major Pynchon's goeing to Albany, where meeting with the Sachem the[y] came to an agreement and buried two Axes in the
    Ground; one for English another for themselves; which ceremony to them is more significant & binding than all Articles of Peace[,] the hatchet being a principal
    weapon with them."

    South Carolina and the Cherokee Nation 1785
    Treaty of Hopewell 1785, Keowee, South Carolina: signed by Col. Benjamin Hawkins, Gen. Andrew Pickens and Headman McIntosh, establishing the boundary of the
    Cherokee Nation. Use of the phrase 'Bury the Hatchet"? ARTICLE 13. The hatchet shall be forever buried, and the peace given by the United States, and
    friendship re-established between the said states on the one part, and all the Cherokees on the other, shall be universal; and the contracting parties shall use their utmost endeavors to maintain the peace given as aforesaid, and friendship re-established.

    Concerning dna I have dna on my side. Dna distribution does not support a haplo group x crossing across the bering straight because the haplo group is absent in Asia as mentioned in the National Geographic article "Great Surprise"—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins. Also haplo group x highest concentrations are in North east America its completely absent in South America this being supportive of the Book of Mormon history D&C and saying and revelations given by Joseph Smith. There are so many other things I can mention but I do not want overwhelm you.


    ReplyDelete
  61. this is david part 3

    If you do not have anything substantive to say your better off not writing that's b$%^#@. If you have anything substantive to say please let me know I will do research on it. If you just want to argue the Michigan relics you are going to bore me to death. I have listed so many things that you need to address or find something new. Take Care David

    Bury the hatchet ceremony, Bat Creek Stone, Newark holy stone, hamsa symbol found only in north American Indian artifacts, azgen legend, Hopewell copper breastplates, Hopewell copper head-plates, Copper arrowheads, Hopewell copper knifes, Hopewell copper artifacts, Hopewell mound fortifications matching that described in BoM, Hopewell mound in shape of menorah, Hopewell highways industry and trade matching that described in BoM, Hopewell Indian timeline matching that of the BoM, mass archeological Indian burial grave sites indicative of large scale wars. James adair's book comparing north American Indians to the lost twelve tribes, Zarehmla is located on new Madrid fault according to what D&C125:3 says. New Madrid fault eruptions match that of the BoM, Big Spring Missouri is good candidate of Waters of Mormon described in BoM, mic mak Indian has a hieroglyphics type written language, chief Joseph had cuneiform tablets, hopewell mound fortification in the shape of a menorah, North American Indian worship of J-hov-h, haplo group x dna highest concentrations found among Hopewell Indians north east American Indians and also found in middle east people to include the druze.The only Eurasian ethnic group possessing a relatively high percentage of haplogroup X are the Druzes of Lebanon, Syria and Israel, among whom X makes up 15% of maternal lineages. The Druzes also have the greatest diversity of X lineages of any population, possessing X1a, X1c, X2b, X2e, X2f, X2h and X3 lineages. Non-Druze populations in the Levant have far lower frequencies of X, between 1% and 2% only. Haplogroup X is completely absent from the Volga-Ural region and Lapland, in the extreme east and north of Europe, respectively.

    The X2a subclade is also found among many indigenous Amerindian people from North America, notably among the Sioux (15%), the Nuu-Chah-Nulth (11%–13%), the Navajo (7%), and the Yakama (5%).
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml#distribution

    ReplyDelete
  62. This is David

    Simon you have been really quiet through all this. Can we talk Australian stuff I served in Sydney Chinese speaking but I still love Australia and its people.

    ReplyDelete
  63. David said "Concerning the Michigan relics whether its fake or not it does not matter". Then stop using them because you are an embarrassment to the thinking LDS members of your church. And nothing else that you have been spouting off here is proving anything.

    You keep failing to respond to the sources that have been provided to you, other than to cherry pick through them and make more absurd claims even after I advised you not to. If you are typical of what the future members of Mormonism are going to be like then your church is due for a major collapse. Honestly David, discussing anything with you is like trying to convince a conspiracy theorist that Neil Armstrong really did walk on the moon. Email me if/when you get a grip on reality.

    ReplyDelete
  64. This is David

    Oh tapir I see that you have reduced to personal attacks. I would be frustrated to. What did you think of the Silas J Rand quote.

    https://archive.org/stream/cihm_12305#page/n39/mode/2up
    Its on the top of page xxxv

    For all the people who new the American Indians back in the 1700 and 1800s its amazing all the cultural links back to the middle east. There are entire books on these links that need to be studied. It makes it pretty tough to deny when there are so many witnesses. If it was just one you could say that person is crazy but now there is alot of people I keep finding more quotes and links. Also what do you think of the dna links and no haplo group x dna in asia disproving a haplo group x crossing across the bering strait. Man that's ironic.




    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David, after your smartass reference to me as a "Mesoamerican apologist" you have a lot of nerve claiming that I have reduced to personal attacks. I am starting to think that something is wrong with you, but I digress.

      Now that you have accepted the fact that the Michigan Relics are fake it is time to begin your journey into reality a little more. I have said to you earlier that you are being influenced by people who should not be trusted. Wayne May has continued to promote those Michigan Relics and I showed you what James Talmage had written about them, which you seemed to finally accept.

      Look at this lie made by Wayne May about an alleged Egyptian temple in Tennessee with stone pillars.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wp__F3zf2n4

      He doesn't tell you that the pillars are not stone, they are wooden post fragments encased in dirt being treated before they could be removed. Read the actual archaeology documents about it for yourself in the Smithsonian Institution Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 118, 1938, "An Archaeological Survey of the Norris Basin in Eastern Tennessee" by William S. Webb, pages 161-179.
      https://archive.org/stream/bulletin118smit#page/164/mode/2up

      David, the LDS members such as Wayne May and Rod Meldrum are deceiving you. After you finally read what an LDS apostle said about the Michigan Relics and you finally realized that those objects are not real, you should now ask yourself why the prophet and apostles aren't talking about and publicly showing the world the evidence for the Book of Mormon that Meldrum claims is real. The answer is for the same reason that apostle Talmage took the interest and time to study the Michigan Relics and was honest enough to tell the world that those were fake. Dave, your LDS leaders know that the claims made by Meldrum and May are not valid. If they were true, your church's official publications would be filled with pages of proof and evidence.

      Now is the time for you to study further, beyond the nonsense that dishonest members of your church have been telling you. Here are several things for you to read:

      The Bat Creek Stone: Judeans in Tennessee?
      Tennessee Anthropologist
      Vol. XVI, No. 1, Spring 1991
      http://www.ramtops.co.uk/bat1.html

      The Bat Creek Fraud: A Final Statement
      Tennessee Anthropologist Vol. XVIII, No. 2, Fall 1993
      http://www.ramtops.co.uk/bat2.html

      The Bat Creek Stone Revisited: A Fraud Exposed
      American Antiquity Vol. 69, No. 4 (Oct., 2004), pp. 761-769
      http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/batcreekfraud.pdf

      Twelth Annual Report of the Bureau of Ethnology to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, 1890-91
      https://archive.org/details/annualreportofbu1218901891smit

      Irrationality and Popular Archaeology, Kenneth L. Feder
      American Antiquity, 49(3), 1984, pp. 521-541
      http://www.michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/Irrationality%20and%20Popular%20Archaeology.pdf

      Pseudo-Archaeology: The Appropriation and Commercialization of Cultural Heritage, Alecia Bassett
      Spectrum, Issue 3, Fall 2013, pp. 61-67
      http://cola.unh.edu/sites/cola.unh.edu/files/student-journals/6_SPECTRUM_Bassett.pdf

      Archaeology from the Dark Side
      http://www.salon.com/2005/08/31/archaeology/

      Possessing the Past: The use and abuse of archaeology in building nation-states
      http://www.heritagedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Possessing-the-Past1.pdf

      Pseudoarchaeology and nationalism
      https://www.academia.edu/358453/Pseudoarchaeology_and_Nationalism_Essentializing_Difference

      Here are a few books that you should get from your library and study:

      Encyclopedia of Dubious Archaeology: From Atlantis to the Walam Olum, Kenneth L. Feder

      Frauds, Myths, and Mysteries: Science and Pseudoscience in Archaeology, Kenneth L. Feder

      Archaeological Fantasies: How Pseudoarchaeology Misrepresents the Past and Misleads the Public, Garrett G. Fagan

      Fantastic Archaeology: The Wild Side of American Prehistory, Stephen Williams


      Delete
  65. David, you should read the review of Rand's book that was written by a credible ethnologist.
    http://www.jstor.org/stable/658301

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This is David

      In the article you posted it does not criticize his command of the Mik maq language only the choosing of the stories which he chose to write down. Nice try though

      Delete
    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

      Delete
    3. David said "In the article you posted it does not criticize his command of the Mik maq language only the choosing of the stories which he chose to write down. Nice try though".

      David, do you have a comprehension problem? "The book shows, however, an utter inability to discriminate between the true and the false, and complete ignorance of the aboriginal range of thought, with the result that we find the Arabian Nights and Grimm's Fairy Tales given as Micmac legends." The inability to discriminate between true and false seems to be a problem you share with Rand. Arguing by cherry picking won't work for those of us who think and use our brains. Go back and read that review without your pre-determined bias. It clearly states that Rand's book is "of little scientific value".

      Earlier you said "For all the people who new the American Indians back in the 1700 and 1800s its amazing all the cultural links back to the middle east." David you talk as if the American Indian are extinct and lived only in the past. Do you know ANY Mi'kmaq today? Are you aware of the issues they are deeply involved in right now? Are you familiar with this iconic photo of a young woman resisting peacefully over water? Is that what you think a Hebrew looks like?
      http://d1jrw5jterzxwu.cloudfront.net/sites/default/files/styles/article_header_image/public/article_media/mimaq_eagle_feather_protest-ossie_michelin-aptn_1.jpg?itok=Kj5cWELy

      You mentioned the Sioux in an earlier comment. You do realize don't you that the Sioux are made up of many nations and are not a single tribe? Do you personally know anyone from the great Sioux Nation? If yes, which tribe? Which reservation is he or she enrolled with? Would you like to meet with me on the Pine Ridge or Rosebud? Give me a date, time and place.

      It is very easy to hijack someone else's culture and make false claims about its origin. It is also very insulting and degrading. If you decide to live in reality, email me.

      You have made a large amount of noise about the Cherokee and James Adair's book. You should study the research of Dr. Lisa Mills. She found that Cherokee mtDNA samples “do not cluster close to the Ohio Hopewell.”
      http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/ancient-dna-from-the-ohio-hopewell/

      You can read Dr. Mills' published dissertation at this link.
      https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=osu1054605467&disposition=inline

      You seem to have convinced yourself that the Hopewell culture was the Book of Mormon people, so why have you have wasted your breath arguing for evidence from Adair that doesn't even apply to the Hopewell? And you do realize don't you that the Hopewell culture was many different peoples, not just a single haplogroup? If you don't know that, study the work of Dr. Mills and Dr. Bolnick before you continue spouting off your nonsense.

      David, the Michigan Relics, the Bat Creek Stone, the Newark Holy Stones, the Davenport artifacts, the Grave Creek Stone, and countless other objects are known to be hoax artifacts. Your discounting of the ethnologist James Mooney's review of Rand's book doesn't give any credibility to your absurd claims. Read the sources I have provided to you. Read them without bias. Study them without cherry picking. Get a grip on reality David because you honestly seem unable to distinguish truth from lies and you are involved in spreading fantasy.

      Delete
  66. The is David

    The Waters of Mormon. There is a good chance that we know where the Waters of Mormon are located. Based on the geography and features of the suggested place and the description given by the Book of Mormon and D&C.
    This is how Alma described the waters of Mormon Mosiah18:5
    5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.
    What sticks out is it is described as a fountain of pure water.
    Big Springs, Missouri fits this description

    Big springs has a daily out flow of 286 million gallons per day. Enough that the springs creates white water as it enters what appears to be glacial crystal clear pool of water. See link below

    http://www.scienceviews.com/parks/bigspring.html

    How do we know that the waters of Mormon should be in Missouri the Book of Mormon and D&C answer that question also.

    Alma says in from Mosiah 18:4,31

    4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land
    31 And these things were done in the borders of the land, that they might not come to the knowledge of the king.

    So from these verses we learn that the Waters of Mormon are near the border of the land.

    So how do we learn where the borders of the land are located that is deduced from D&C 54:8
    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.
    The borders of the Lamanites is located in Missouri just like the Waters of Mormon would be located in Missouri. WOW

    Joseph Smith got lucky or he is Prophet depends upon what you believe.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. For a guy who claims we've "strengthened his testimony," you're sure engaging in a whole lot of chest-thumping and rhetoric that is clearly designed to convince yourself the Book of Mormon isn't a fraud; do you really think you're going to persuade us? Simon's doubtless ignoring you for a reason, and my advice would be to channel your energy in other directions. Maybe you could check out Dave Twede's blog on "Angergiving" and the "authentic blessing" of the newfound curiosity one acquires when one sets aside the brainwashing.

      I bear witness his is a real and true account of the gifts one receives when one opens one's mind.

      BTW, there's a similar "Big Springs" up in Island Park, Idaho, that creates the headwaters of Henry's Fork of the Snake River. Are you sure that one is the one Joseph Smith meant?

      Delete
    2. correction: should read "isn't the one Joseph Smith meant."

      Delete
  67. This is David

    Tapir since you like to focus on what is disputed lets look at what is not disputed.

    1)DNA Haplo Group x distribution is found in Eurasia and only in the North East American Continent.
    2)DNA Haplo group x distribution does not support haplo group x coming across the bering land bridge because haplo group x is absent in Asia see haplo group x distribution maps and national geographic article below. The Eupedia link show a large haplo group x concentration in Northern Israel.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml#distribution
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

    3)The Book of Mormon History matches the Haplo group x concentrations.

    4)The Hopewell Indians used copper breastplates and Headplates and had metal jewelry.

    5)The Book of Mormon says that the Nephites used breastplates and headplates metal jewelry and were very capable metallurgist. I Would also like to mention the Old Testament also mentions metal headplates and breastplates. When the pilgrims arrived the Indians were no longer using metal breastplates suggesting that the use died off with the Hopewell Indians.


    6)The rise and disappearance of the Hopewell indians match that described in the Book of Mormon 600BC to 420AD anthropologist place hopewell rise and disappearance at 200BC to 400AD. This gives Lehie's and Zoram's family 400 years to make a archeological footprint. Most anthropologist place the disappearance of the Hopewell Indians at 400AD some have place it at 500AD

    7)You criticized the Book of Mormon saying the Hopewell Tribe was composed of many tribes the Book of Mormon says the same thing Jacob 1:13-14
    13 Now the people which were not Lamanites were Nephites; nevertheless, they were called Nephites, Jacobites, Josephites, Zoramites, Lamanites, Lemuelites, and Ishmaelites.

    14 But I, Jacob, shall not hereafter distinguish them by these names, but I shall call them Lamanites that seek to destroy the people of Nephi, and those who are friendly to Nephi I shall call Nephites, or the people of Nephi, according to the reigns of the kings.

    8)Hopewell highways, trade, using mounds of earth for fortifications, metallurgy match that of the Book of Mormon.

    9) A jewish Hamsa symbol is found on Indian artifacts to include the rattlesnake disc. This Symbol was not used in the South American
    Continent. See below
    http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/palettesrattlesnakedisclrg.htm

    10)Mik maq written language has three Egyptian style hieroglyphic characters.

    Thats good enough for now stay tuned for more later






    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Part I:

      Is it okay if we don't? Both Tapir Rider and I have concluded the kindest thing we could for you is suggest some serious professional help. We're sorry the BOM is an utter fraud and that Joseph Smith was a sexual predator (check out the latest church essays on that subject, especially the acknowledgement of his 14-year old "wives"). We're sorry you were lied to; we were, too, but we managed to figure things out.

      You've taken to outright prevarications in misrepresenting the varieties of the X haplogroups in North America and their relationship with the Eurasian varieties. One of the authors of this article, Deborah Bolnick, is one of the leading DNA researchers in the world, and she and the other authors were understandably angry over the way Rodney Meldrum and the other "Lost Civilizations" advocates including Wayne May misrepresented them and unethically edited the sound bites in their video to suggest they supported the notion of ancient pre-Columbian North American Old World/New World contact.

      http://www.csicop.org/si/show/civilizations_lost_and_found_fabricating_history_-_part_three_real_messages/

      First, while several genetic studies indicate that haplogroup X may have first evolved in the Near East (Brown et al. 1998; Reidla et al. 2003; Shlush et al. 2008), these studies do not suggest that it originated specifically in Israelite or other Hebrew-speaking populations. Haplogroup X is found throughout the Near East, western Eurasia, and northern Africa, and it is not unique to (nor especially common in) Israelite or Jewish populations (Reidla et al. 2003; Behar et al. 2004). Shlush et al. (2008) did find a higher frequency of haplogroup X in the Galilee Druze, a (non-Jewish) population isolate that practices a distinctive monotheistic religion, but the authors themselves point out that their nonrandom sampling strategy does not provide an accurate estimate of population haplogroup frequencies. Furthermore, Shlush et al. (2008) argue that the Galilee Druze represent a contemporary "refugium" for haplogroup X, not that haplogroup X must have originated in the hills of Galilee (as diffusionist Donald Yates claims in the video).

      Delete
    2. Part II


      To date, DNA has been extracted from the remains of seventy-three individuals buried at two sites exhibiting Hopewell archaeological features (the pete Klunk mound group in Illinois and the Hopewell mound group in Ohio). Maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) was analyzed, and it shows that the genetic makeup of these populations was broadly similar to other ancient and contemporary Native American populations from eastern North America (Mills 2003; Bolnick and Smith 2007) (Figure 1). When the Hopewell population (as well as other Native Americans) is compared with Old World populations, they are most genetically similar to populations in Asia. The scientific consensus, based on more than 150 studies of Native American genetic variation, suggests that all Native Americans are descended from a single source population that originated in Asia and migrated to the Americas via Beringia (Figure 2) approximately fourteen thousand to twenty thousand years ago (Kemp and Schurr 2010). This consensus reflects not only the observed patterns of mtDNA variation but also studies of paternally inherited Y-chromosome markers and biparentally inherited autosomal markers.

      Geneticists refer to the distribution of HG's in instances like the Druze as evidence of "genetic drift" and the "founder effect." The Druze are a "new" population in the Middle East, dating to around the Tenth Century A.D. It's easy to visualize that an isolated population would have less genetic variability--because of a lack of intermarriage with outside populations--and the simple explanation is that a number of the original women in that sect were Haplogroup X (sub-groups X2*, X2b, X2e, and X2f but not X2a, which is found in Native Americans); indeed, the reason there are only five known HG's among Native Americans is because of similar isolation, albeit on a larger scale.

      Finally, if a group did arrive from the Middle East, where are the other hg's? Even in the Middle East, "X" is comparatively uncommon, and it's silly to suggest that would be the only one that arrived with Lehi and his party.

      Third, it is misleading and inappropriate to focus exclusively on haplogroup X and to ignore all other mtDNA lineages when considering the genetic origins of the Hopewell mound builders-especially since haplogroup X was found in only one of the seventy-three Hopewell individuals studied. As noted earlier, when all mtDNA haplogroups present in the Hopewell population (as well as other Native Americans) are considered, the genetic evidence clearly indicates an Asian origin. Furthermore, if there had been a pre-Columbian migration of Israelites to eastern North America, we would almost certainly see other common Middle Eastern lineages in the Hopewell and other Native American populations. We don't. None of the thirteen other mtDNA haplogroups found in the Galilee Druze is present in the Hopewell or other pre-Columbian Native Americans

      Case closed.

      Delete
    3. David said "You criticized the Book of Mormon saying the Hopewell Tribe was composed of many tribes the Book of Mormon says the same thing".

      David, what the hell is wrong with you? I mean, seriously, did your mother drop you on your goddam head?

      Here is what I said "And you do realize don't you that the Hopewell culture was many different peoples, not just a single haplogroup?" I was talking about numerous haplogroups and you are still trying to single out haplogroup x.

      Now let me explain why your latest comment about tribes has pissed me off. I said "You do realize don't you that the Sioux are made up of many nations and are not a single tribe? Do you personally know anyone from the great Sioux Nation? If yes, which tribe? Which reservation is he or she enrolled with? Would you like to meet with me on the Pine Ridge or Rosebud? Give me a date, time and place."

      Your response to me was to mix up my comment about the Sioux while ignoring what I said about the Hopewell. It is impossible to even have a reasonable conversation with you online David.

      I'll ask you again, and please answer without anymore mixing up my words. Would you like to meet with me on the Rosebud or Pine Ridge? Or perhaps you are too uncomfortable being on an Indian reservation. How about Gordon or Valentine Nebraska? I'm asking because you need to get in touch with reality David. Let's get your feet on the ground and make the people real for you that you have hijacked and are spreading false claims about.

      Delete
  68. This is David

    You guys just need to learn to accept the evidence it is quite evident. Concolor the whole founders effect and genetic drift idea you brought up is complete nonesense

    Here are some quotes from the below listed paper



    "To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry."
    "Median network analysis indicated that European and Native American haplogroup X mtDNAs, although distinct, nevertheless are distantly related to each other."

    "A recent survey of European mtDNAs has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “haplogroup X.”"
    "Further, coalescence-age estimates for haplogroup X in the Americas, based on either RFLP or CR sequence data, clearly indicate the antiquity of this haplogroup in the New World.Overall, these data exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in Native Americans is due to recent European admixture and, instead, provide a rigorous demonstration that this haplogroup represents an additional founding mtDNA lineage in Native Americans. "

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707616292

    The fact is something you guys can not accept is once again the haplo group x world wide distrobution matches the book of Mormon History perfectly. Lehi and his wife Ishmeal and his wife and Zoram adding the haplo group x in to the new world thats why it only account for 3% of the native american population and only found in high concentrations in the east coast of america. It also matches the absence found on the west coast of america and south america and in east asia. It matches the high concentration in east Canada because it says nephites migrated north never to be heard of again. It matched the low concentrations below the Great Lakes because it says they were wiped out.
    Nice try though I give you props.



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David, if you're going to put your denial on display, I'll try to address it, but you really need to look at the underlying beliefs that are "fueling" it.

      From your own link (which is an early paper on the presence of Haplogroup X in this hemisphere; there have been others since that have explored the issue offering "deeper resolution"):

      Despite a shared consensus RFLP haplotype, substantial genetic differences exist between the Native American and European mtDNAs. Phylogenetic analysis indicates that the two groups are related—but only distantly—to each other and that considerable genetic substructure exists within both groups. Further, coalescence-age estimates for haplogroup X in the Americas, based on either RFLP or CR sequence data, clearly indicate the antiquity of this haplogroup in the New World. Overall, these data exclude the possibility that the occurrence of haplogroup X in Native Americans is due to recent European admixture and, instead, provide a rigorous demonstration that this haplogroup represents an additional founding mtDNA lineage in Native Americans.

      Dennis Stanford tried to hang his "Solutrean Hypothesis" on this particular hatrack (suggesting North American X hg's came from Lehi & company would mean they are due to "recent admixture"), and he wound up floundering in the Atlantic, loudly hollering about mythical boats that weren't there. And Stanford could at least base his arguments on the fact that the X hg's in North America had been here in antiquity. If Lehi's ladies brought it with them in 600 B.C. that would have been admixture from essentially contemporary sources.

      http://violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/10/problematic-science-journalism-native-american-ancestry-and-the-solutrean-hypothesis/

      And besides all that denial, your circular reasoning is making you dizzy. Your claims are rooted in your entrenched delusion the BOM is true, and it ain't, despite what your tummy tells you (and one of those voices in your head is doubtless an old Sunday School or seminary teacher). There was no wheat or barley found in the New World before 1492, and the horses, mammoths, and mastodons all went extinct around 10-12,000 years ago (so-called "little barley," a favorite talking point of apologists, is an entirely different species).

      David's "Rules of Reasoning":

      One: The BOM is true. I know it is! I know it is."

      Two: All other thoughts are processed through this echo chamber, and if they contradict Rule One, they must be wrong.

      I'll try to extract that "pesky delusion," but as a psychologist I'm a bit clumsy, and my Bowie knife isn't really suited for such work; you should seek someone out with a scalpel instead. It'll mean less bleeding.

      BTW, you own data impeaches your nonsensical claim that "haplo group x world wide distrobution matches the book of Mormon History perfectly." You note that it is found in higher concentrations among the Druze, for example. That's the result of genetic drift and the Founder Effect I tried to explain to you earlier.

      Delete
    2. Phylogenetic analysis with its built in assumptions would yield a quite different answer than one based on observed genetics. The idea that man crossed some kind of land bridge is ridiculous. Look at the topography. Who ever proposed that idea must have been a couch potato. Besides This article suggests Ocean travel as much as 70,000 years ago.
      http://discovermagazine.com/2008/jun/20-did-humans-colonize-the-world-by-boat

      Delete
  69. This is david
    I forgot one thing the origins of haplo group x is found to be the middle east

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056775

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It is worse than just that you forgot. You are in denial about the difference between haplogroup x1 and x2. Read again from the link you posted.

      "Some of these lineages, such as the mtDNA haplogroups U6 [28–30], M1 [29,31,32] and X1 [33] had their ancestral roots in the Middle East but expanded in North Africa since Paleolithic times with instances of secondary dispersion in this area."

      David, your source for the ancestral roots is about X1, which IS NOT the same as X2. And even though both do in fact go back to the Near East, you are in denial about how long ago that was. Your pseudo BS is an embarrassment to your church. Your pulling the same kind of nonsense that I'm seeing over on Dr. Brad Lepper's blog.
      http://apps.ohiohistory.org/ohioarchaeology/newark-holy-stone-is-featured-on-america-unearthed/

      The comments at Dr. Lepper's blog are getting interesting. Rod Meldrum is now posting, telling scientists they are wrong about the forged artifact, they are wrong about haplogroup x and claiming that scientists have destroyed evidence.

      It is interesting to watch Rod Meldrum steer LDS beliefs into a train wreck. And it is getting annoying to continue discussing anything with you David. You are promoting racism against a most beautiful people whom I deeply love, you are intentionally avoiding discussing any of the significant points that we have addressed with you, you are ignoring the sources we have given you while you present other sources for your arguments that are not directly related to the subject at hand.

      If your church's top 15 leaders had even an ounce of intellectual honesty they would speak out and put a halt to this kind of spreading of false information and attempted slander of science. But of course they allow it because they don't care by what means they keep their members paying tithing.

      David, it is obviously clear to me that you do not care to email me, you do not care to actually meet with me, nor do you care to get to know real people. Your fantasy is a sickness that is promoting harm to some of the finest people on earth. The American Indians don't need your BS, nor do they need Rod Meldrum's pseudo twisting of their ancestral history.

      Delete
  70. This is David

    You guys only attempted to explain away one of the items.

    1)DNA Haplo Group x distribution is found in Eurasia and only in the North East American Continent.
    2)DNA Haplo group x distribution does not support haplo group x coming across the bering land bridge because haplo group x is absent in Asia see haplo group x distribution maps and national geographic article below. The Eupedia link show a large haplo group x concentration in Northern Israel.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_X_mtDNA.shtml#distribution
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/

    3)The Book of Mormon History matches the Haplo group x concentrations.

    4)The Hopewell Indians used copper breastplates and Headplates and had metal jewelry.

    5)The Book of Mormon says that the Nephites used breastplates and headplates metal jewelry and were very capable metallurgist. I Would also like to mention the Old Testament also mentions metal headplates and breastplates. When the pilgrims arrived the Indians were no longer using metal breastplates suggesting that the use died off with the Hopewell Indians.


    6)The rise and disappearance of the Hopewell indians match that described in the Book of Mormon 600BC to 420AD anthropologist place hopewell rise and disappearance at 200BC to 400AD. This gives Lehie's and Zoram's family 400 years to make a archeological footprint. Most anthropologist place the disappearance of the Hopewell Indians at 400AD some have place it at 500AD


    7)Hopewell highways, trade, using mounds of earth for fortifications, metallurgy match that of the Book of Mormon.

    8) A jewish Hamsa symbol is found on Indian artifacts to include the rattlesnake disc. This Symbol was not used in the South American
    Continent. See below
    http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/palettesrattlesnakedisclrg.htm

    9)Mik maq written language has three Egyptian style hieroglyphic characters.

    The Waters of Mormon. There is a good chance that we know where the Waters of Mormon are located. Based on the geography and features of the suggested place and the description given by the Book of Mormon and D&C.
    This is how Alma described the waters of Mormon Mosiah18:5
    5 Now, there was in Mormon a fountain of pure water, and Alma resorted thither, there being near the water a thicket of small trees, where he did hide himself in the daytime from the searches of the king.
    What sticks out is it is described as a fountain of pure water.
    Big Springs, Missouri fits this description

    Big springs has a daily out flow of 286 million gallons per day. Enough that the springs creates white water as it enters what appears to be glacial crystal clear pool of water. See link below

    http://www.scienceviews.com/parks/bigspring.html

    How do we know that the waters of Mormon should be in Missouri the Book of Mormon and D&C answer that question also.

    Alma says in from Mosiah 18:4,31

    4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land
    31 And these things were done in the borders of the land, that they might not come to the knowledge of the king.

    So from these verses we learn that the Waters of Mormon are near the border of the land.

    So how do we learn where the borders of the land are located that is deduced from D&C 54:8
    8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.
    The borders of the Lamanites is located in Missouri just like the Waters of Mormon would be located in Missouri. WOW

    Joseph Smith got lucky or he is Prophet depends upon what you believe.

    ReplyDelete
  71. This is David

    Concolor has far as your statements about barley, wheat, horses, and elephants I will refer you to a Mormon apologist website that might help to answer your questions.
    http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProb2.shtml

    ReplyDelete
  72. This is David

    Here is your answer for Barley

    A 1983 article in Science 83 describes archaeological work at the Hohokam site of La Ciudad, near downtown Phoenix, Arizona (the Hohokam
    culture flourished in the North American Southwest from about 300 B.C. to A.D. 1450). The writer states, "Perhaps the most startling evidence of
    Hohokam agricultural sophistication came last year when salvage archeologists found preserved grains of what looks like domesticated barley, the first ever found in the New World." Shortly thereafter, additional samples turned up at other archaeological sites in Oklahoma and Illinois. Of the discoveries made in Illinois, one recent study states that a "previously unidentified seed type . . . has now been identified as little barley (Hordeum pusillum), and there are strong indications that this grain must be added to the list of starchy-seeded plants that were cultivated in the region 2000 years ago.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Little Barley: Hordeum pusillum

      Old Wold Barley: Hordeum vulgare

      This is old stuff for me, seriously, as it is for Simon who's a plant geneticist and Jeff Lindsay's nonsense is where I acquired my familiarity with LDS apologists and their dissembling.

      Item: You still haven't addressed wheat, and the presence of little barley in the diet of Indians in the American Southwest (its existence among the mound builders is only surmised) is not evidence for the BOM. If there were Old World Barley here, it would be evidence of Old World/New World contacts. But there isn't. Same with honeybees...

      And those claims about when horses and mammoths, etc. went extinct are so far outside of scientific consensus they're not worth acknowledging. All of your stuff reduces to "could've," and you're claiming proof, and there is none.

      One more time: The Mi'kmaq written language dates from the 17th Century A.D. over a thousand years after the last mythical Nephite died. The only thing it is evidence for is that First Nation tribes borrowed techniques learned from Europeans.

      And while you're trying to lecture me on Lindsay, go search his blog for his comments regarding Joseph Smith's claims about "Quakers on the Moon," i.e. those beings Smith said lived there and were uniformly tall and dressed like Quakers.

      Lindsay published a statement on his site noting the extremely small areas of the Moon the Apollo astronauts explored and suggested there still might be people living on the moon.

      If you believe that, you'll believe an angel with a flaming sword commanded Joseph Smith to take another man's wife as his own.

      And that being the case, I can't help you.

      Delete
  73. This is David

    Answer for elephants

    Experts agree that the mammoth, and mastodon could have survived in favored spots much later than the time normally assigned for their extinction. The mastodon has already been dated as late as 5000 B.C. at Devil's Den, Florida, and around the Great Lakes to 4000 B.C. Then there is the remarkable discovery of the remains of a butchered mastodon in Ecuador; pottery associated with the find is said to date to after the time of Christ [J. Augusta, The Age of Monsters, Prehistoric and Legendary (London: Paul Hamlyn, 1966), pp. 11-12.]. In its light, the radiocarbon date around 100 B.C. of horse, mammoth and mastodon remains at St. Petersburg, Florida, does not seem impossible [Jim J. Hester, "Agency of Man in Animal Extinction," in Martin and Wright, "Pleistocene Extinctions," p. 185]. The Jaredite mention of the elephant a single time - very early in their lineage history - hints that the creature became extinct in their area soon thereafter. Perhaps the Jaredites themselves killed off the last of the beasts within their zone. But the Jaredites might not have been the only people to record the presence of the big animal. Some North American Indians have recounted legends of "great stiff-legged beasts who could not lie down" and of an animal with a fifth appendage, which came out of its head [H. P. Beck, "The Giant Beaver: A Prehistoric Memory," Ethnohistory 19 (1972):117; William Duncan Strong, "North American Indian Traditions Suggesting Knowledge of the Mammoth," American Anthropologist 36 (1934):81-88]. Possibly, tribes transmitted through oral tradition some vague remembrance of encounters with these "elephants." The later the beasts survived, the easier it is to accept the reliability of the tradition. In any case, it is possible that the mammoth or mastodon hung on in Mexico at least as late as 2500 B.C.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Nobody doubts that Native Americans had contact with Mammoths. Knowledge of the entire Clovis culture began with the discovery of spearpoints in situ in Clovis, New Mexico. They were dated to around 11,000 years ago. And the sequencing of the DNA of the Anzick Child in Montana is strong evidence that the Clovis people were ancestral to all Native Americans.

      And incidentally; they were Hebrews, and their DNA can be traced to the Lake Baikal region in Mongolia.

      Now give up your silly tantrums, circular reasoning, and clinging to absurd nonsense fashioned by a 19th Century con man.

      Delete
    2. correction: my statement should read: The ancestors of today's Native Americans weren't Hebrews, and their DNA can be traced to the Lake Baikal region near Mongolia.

      Delete
  74. This is David

    Concolor

    Hopewell indians used little barley and i also have a reply for horses and elephants. Also you guys did not attempt to reply to the other proofs that i put 2-9. Concolor please keep asking questions I love finding out the answers to your questions.

    Evidence indicates that the Hopewell exploited a great number of local domesticates, including squash, marsh elder, goosefoot, sunflower, erect knotweed, may grass, little barley, sump weed, and chenopod. The Hopewell people also exploited local game and riverine resources.

    http://www.historyandtheheadlines.abc-clio.com/ContentPages/ContentPage.aspx?entryId=1171736
    Fast-forward to 2009 and DNA analysis added another dramatic twist to the mystery.

    Horses, the evidence now suggests, may have survived in North America until 7600 years ago – some 5000 years longer than previously thought. The new timeline suggests an overlap with human habitation approaching 6000 years.
    Researchers who removed ancient DNA of horses and mammoths from permanently frozen soil in central Alaskan permafrost dated the material at between 7600 and 10,500 years old.
    The findings suggested populations of these now-extinct mammals endured longer in the continental interior of North America, challenging the conventional view that these and other large species disappeared about 12,000 years ago

    http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/#axzz3LHG71FEf
    The date for which horses died out keeps changing there is no reason to say that it is possible that pockets of horses persisted during Book of Mormon Timelines



    Answer for elephants

    Experts agree that the mammoth, and mastodon could have survived in favored spots much later than the time normally assigned for their extinction. The mastodon has already been dated as late as 5000 B.C. at Devil's Den, Florida, and around the Great Lakes to 4000 B.C. Then there is the remarkable discovery of the remains of a butchered mastodon in Ecuador; pottery associated with the find is said to date to after the time of Christ [J. Augusta, The Age of Monsters, Prehistoric and Legendary (London: Paul Hamlyn, 1966), pp. 11-12.]. In its light, the radiocarbon date around 100 B.C. of horse, mammoth and mastodon remains at St. Petersburg, Florida, does not seem impossible [Jim J. Hester, "Agency of Man in Animal Extinction," in Martin and Wright, "Pleistocene Extinctions," p. 185]. The Jaredite mention of the elephant a single time - very early in their lineage history - hints that the creature became extinct in their area soon thereafter. Perhaps the Jaredites themselves killed off the last of the beasts within their zone. But the Jaredites might not have been the only people to record the presence of the big animal. Some North American Indians have recounted legends of "great stiff-legged beasts who could not lie down" and of an animal with a fifth appendage, which came out of its head [H. P. Beck, "The Giant Beaver: A Prehistoric Memory," Ethnohistory 19 (1972):117; William Duncan Strong, "North American Indian Traditions Suggesting Knowledge of the Mammoth," American Anthropologist 36 (1934):81-88]. Possibly, tribes transmitted through oral tradition some vague remembrance of encounters with these "elephants." The later the beasts survived, the easier it is to accept the reliability of the tradition.
    There are the davenport indian elephant pipes found by jacob gass. These finds are disputed because they do not match the accepted long held beliefs of when the mastodons died out but of course it matches once again Book of Mormon history. There is no logical reason for Jacob Gass to make elephant pipes.

    Take care

    ReplyDelete
  75. Give it up, David (and yes, I heard from Simon; he seems to have time to answer me privately, but apparenlty isn't going to bother with your nonsense. He's characterized Rodney Meldrum as a "Young Earth Creationist" who uses one discredited article to establish his "timeline").

    First you resorted to known frauds, such as the Bat Creek Stone and Newark Holy Stones, and now you've gone off into the realm of nonsense and junk science. Those finds weren't rejected because they "didn't match accepted long held beliefs"; they were rejected because the science does not support those claims. And science doesn't support the BOM claims, either. It's a poorly written 19th Century document that was nothing but a "prop" for a snake oil sales operation.

    LDS apologetics is nothing more than a continuation of that tradition of lying and obfuscation.

    ReplyDelete
  76. Simon's statements about Rod Meldrum's "Young Earth Creationist" views is echoed by some of the sources that David has provided which suggest--all evidence to the contary--the mammoth, mastodon, and horse extinctions in North America were not a Pleistocene event but occurred later.

    I found the same claims in this blogsite by a Creationist, Erich Von Fange, another pseudo-scientist who demonstrates, as does Jeff Lindsay, that having a PhD is no insurance against possessing crackpot ideas.

    http://www.creationism.org/vonfange/vonFangeTimeUpDownChap06.htm

    David Ingram, an English adventurer, was put ashore with 113 other men between Mexico and Florida in 1568, and he wandered for years in the American interior before making his way to the east coast of the American colonies. In his report to the state secretary of Queen Elizabeth, he described precisely and drew accurate pictures of elephants as well as bison and other animals he and his companions had observed during the journey. Ingram could not have known that some centuries later, elephant bones (mastodons and mammoth) would be discovered all over the continent. This account is not taken seriously, but it is a curious fact that 200 years later President Jefferson was informed by a delegation of Indian chiefs that hunting in the interior lands included animals described as elephants. It is a matter of record that President Jefferson asked Lewis and Clark to be on the alert for elephant herds during their exploration of the West (Wendt, 1956, p.525-526).

    The curious reports above fit in well with the concept of a young earth. There seems to be no need to invoke an old earth to explain any of the finds.


    Ingram's account, incidentally was written second hand thirteen years later. And those claims about "mammoths in Ecuador" are repeated here. Nobody but the foo foo crowd is buying them.

    And the presence of mammoth and mastodon bones was known in Jefferson's time, but there are no accounts of living specimens, despite extensive use of alcohol on the American frontier.

    http://www.creationism.org/vonfange/vonFangeTimeUpDownChap01.htm

    The playbook for these propagandists is the same whether Christian evangelical or LDS apologist. They use "spectacular events' (such as the discovery the coelacanth still swims in the deep oceans) to persuade their followers of the "unreliability" of science, In the ensuing confusion and drama, they claim Scripture as their ultimate authority. Circular reasoning in a nutshell, folks, with heavy emphasis on "nut."

    Within the church, many people tend to be overawed by 'science,' and are too ready to compromise on clear Scriptural statements. But if we look at actual evidence, we can see that this situation does not need to exist.

    As an aside on the matter of evidence, we are aware that we face something of a dilemma. Our fellow Christians don't need evidence if they already accept Scripture for what it says; our friends who accept another set of assumptions about the world will not believe even when confronted by evidence.


    We are unswayed by that evidence when it's obviously manufactured and pretzel logic is used to fit it into pre-conceived notions that have their origins in Bronze Age fables.

    ReplyDelete
  77. This is David

    Concolor

    The hopewell cultivated little barley which is closely related to old world domesticated barley which I will accept as the Book of Mormon version as barley.

    As far as wheat goes the hopewell cultivated may grass which is what I'm going to assume the Book of Mormon meant as wheat as they are both grass.
    http://www.historyandtheheadlines.abc-clio.com/ContentPages/ContentPage.aspx?entryId=1171736

    I did not think about it but agriculture is another check mark to add to the comparison between nephites and the hopewell culture. As well as their dna matching, the dna concentrations matching the book of mormon history, their geography matching the book of mormon, the hopewell using metal breast plates and head plates, hopewell rise and disappearance matching the Book of Mormon, hopewell being very capable metallurgist matching the book of mormon, having metal weapons and jewelry, the mound fortifications matching the book of Mormon, their trade and highways matching the book mormon. Concolor none of these are disputed. If I added the disputed archeological evidence the list would be much longer i'm not doing this for your sake. WOW

    The mik maq hieroglyphic language was not a product of Europeans there is no research paper or article that says that. The language eventually used the latin alphabet from the help of europeans later but the original hieroglyphic written language is not a product of Europeans and that is a fact.

    When it comes to mastodons and horses dieing 5000 to 10000 years before the Book of Mormon timeline.
    There is link to 13 animals that were thought to be extinct that are currently no longer extinct. I would agree that a general extinction happened around the general timeline but the article shows that pockets of groups of these animals could have continued to live much longer then expected. There is a recent article that I just posted that proposes the change of the extinction of horses to 7600BC years instead of 1200BC
    And since you already posted the quote about Thomas Jefferson hearing about mastodons living in the great lakes area confirms this idea that pockets of mastodons could have lived during jaredite times So there is no reason to re post the Jefferson quote.


    http://horsetalk.co.nz/2012/11/29/why-did-horses-die-out-in-north-america/#axzz3LHG71FEf

    http://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/animals/photos/lazarus-species-13-extinct-animals-found-alive/rediscovered

    Take Care


    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Sorry David, but arguing with you is like arguing with Erich Von Däniken about ancient aliens. Per an article about him from the early 1970's: "He just lies."

      So when Joseph Smith said "wheat" (a favorite expression of Orrin Porter Rockwell, BTW), he actually meant "may grass." Reminds me of how John L. Sorenson, an LDS apologist who is credited with developing the "Mesoamerican Hypothesis" for the BOM geography, speculated that by horses (Sorenson is at least educated enough to know horses went extinct 11,000 years ago), Joseph Smith actually meant "tapirs." That, incidentally is the inside joke involving my friend's nom de cyber-space. That reminds me; Native Americans never invented--or used--the wheel, and the BOM speaks of chariots. More coffin nails... Rather than holler "May Grass! May Grass," though, I think you should be shouting "Mayday! Mayday." Your apologetics are a total wreck.

      Oh, and I mentioned honey bees above. Sorenson's Mesoamerican claims have yours shipwrecked with those little buggers. There are stingless bees in this hemisphere that produce honey, but they are found only in tropical regions and not in the Midwest where the Hopewell Indians thrived. Okay, go ahead and lie some more (even though Heavenly Father says to always tell the truth). Make up some nonsense that their had to be honeybees in North America during the Nephite era because the BOM says there were.

      And I'm sorry, the Hopewell DNA doesn't match any in the Middle East. Haplogroups A, B, C, and D among mitochondrial DNA are missing, and the X2a and X2g are only distantly related to the X haplogroups in the Middle East. The similarities point to a common ancestor ~20,000 years ago, long before the Jaredites or any other group of humans had progressed beyond the hunter-gatherer stage. The y-chromosomes also differ substantially.

      You keep flunking remedial lessons on that subject. Likewise the Mi'k maq writing... From their own website:

      http://www.muiniskw.org/pgCulture4a.htm

      In 1652, Father Gabriel Druillettes, a Jesuit missionary to the Abenaki, reports seeing the Mi'kmaq use ideograms to record lessons in the "Jesuit Relations" of that year:

      "Some of them wrote out their lessons in their own manner. They made use of a small piece of charcoal instead of a pen, and a piece of bark instead of paper. Their characters are novel, and so individual that one could not know or understand the writing of the other; that is to say, that they made use of certain marks according to their own ideas as of a local memory to preserve the points and the articles and the maxims which they had remembered. They carried away this paper with them to study in the repose of the night."

      In 1677 Father Chrétien Le Clercq, a Franciscan Récollet, made note in his journals of observing Mi'kmaq children taking notes using charcoal and birch bark as he was teaching them prayers. Seeing this as an opportunity for more effective teaching, Father Le Clercq, an accomplished linguist, learned the ideogrammatic system, and expanded it with Mi'kmaw-esque symbols to express Judeo-Christian concepts that had no representation in the Mi'kmaw symbology. In 1691 he published "Nouvelle relation de la Gaspésie" in Paris, wherein he discusses his development of this writing system:

      Delete
  78. This is David

    Concolor
    The bee problem, is really quite easy to answer bees are mentioned twice in the Book of Mormon once in parable and once by the Jaredites. It says in Ether that they gathered bees for the journey to what would now be North America never to be mentioned again by the Nephites. That says to me that they never survived the journey from Eurasia to North America.
    When it comes to chariots to date there have been no archeological discoveries of chariots in North America but if one was discovered it would not matter you would call it a fraud. You would probably say some illiterate 18th century farmer who knew paleo hebrew, cuneiform, Egyptian hieroglyphics and quantum physics was able to make a forgery.
    May grass and wheat same thing.
    Just like little barley and barley are the same thing.
    The Mik Maq had there own written language before the Europeans arrived thats why they were writing on birch bark when they arrived. You want to tell me that father Chretien would teach them heilogryphics instead of the latin alphabet is hysterical. It sounds to me like you are in crisis mode.

    I have to repeat this time after time yes there is a dna match its called haplo group x whether its X1 X2 X55 or Xbillion its related to haplo group x found in eurasia not in asia not on the west coast of america. not in south america only on the east coast of america. The small amount of Haplo group x in america matches the Book of Mormon History. As far as it being 20000 years ago. I dont think so. The hopewell indians use of metal breast plates, head plates and capable metallurgy date back to biblical times not 20000 years ago. Do I need to point back to the national geographic article that professional anthropologist and dna geneticist said that haplo group x did not come through a bering land bridge.There is no dna evidence supporting that idea. Dont make me do that i will post that link you ignore over and over again. In fact I will smite you by posting the haplo group x concentrations BAM.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29#mediaviewer/File:Haplogroup_X_%28mtDNA%29.PNG

    Also here are the other things you seem to ignore that i have posted before BAM.

    I did not think about it but agriculture is another check mark to add to the comparison between nephites and the hopewell culture. As well as their dna matching, the dna concentrations matching the book of mormon history, their geography matching the book of mormon, the hopewell using metal breast plates and head plates, hopewell rise and disappearance matching the Book of Mormon, hopewell being very capable metallurgist matching the book of mormon, having metal weapons and jewelry, the mound fortifications matching the book of Mormon, their trade and highways matching the book mormon. Concolor none of these are disputed. If I added the disputed archeological evidence the list would be much longer i'm doing this for your sake. WOW



    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Now you've resorted to writing fiction there, Dave.

      Wheat is maygrass. Well, you're in good company with John L. "Tapir John" Sorenson. Except that Sorenson insists the BOM took place in Mesoamerica.

      They're two separate species, period, just like the X2a and X2g haplogroups in Native Americans are separate from the X1's and X2's in the Middle East and Africa. And of course you keep ignoring the other four HG's. You really need to learn your ABC's.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalaris_caroliniana

      This is an entirely different species from wheat, which was domesticated in the "Fertile Crescent" thousands of years ago. Note the two plants don't even look like alike. Maygrass, incidentally, was cultivated, not domesticated, same with little barley.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheat

      You're trapped in that circular reasoning maze of your own making there, and unfortunately, I can't help you. I'm thinking maybe, per a suggestion from a friend of mine, that you should try taking a cruise and learning a little about just how huge the oceans are and the utter impossibility of crossing them with watercraft constructed in 600 B.C. Imagine doing that without a compass or sextant. I know, the BOM says they had the Liahona, but offering that as "proof" would just be building on that pile of nonsense you're trying to sell.

      And a mighty big pile it is, I should add.

      Delete
  79. This is David

    Part 1

    Concolor I think you have made one of the most important discoveries in Book of Mormon evidence
    ever. I think this rivals the dna match. You mentioned Father Chrétien Le Clercq.
    You did not add a link but I looked up his writings anyway and its pretty amazing. It looks to
    me that Lehi's landing is mentioned, Christ appearance and links to Egyptian and Hebrew culture from a
    North American indian tribe located in Canada.
    Canada is where I would place it since any nephite
    survivors would have migrated north from the hill cumorah to escape the other tribes that were
    trying to kill them. The book of mormon says the lamanites were in the south so the logical
    escape route would have been to move north.
    I have not read all the writings or studied them in
    depth yet but here are a couple of gems you can take credit for. The tribe he was with was called
    the gaspesians I believe they are of the Mik Maq indians and were probably absorbed in whole by the Mik Maq
    indian tribe later on.

    https://archive.org/details/newrelationofgas05lecl

    Jesus Christ visit

    "They claim that, at a time when their
    country was afflicted with a very dangerous and deadly
    malady which had reduced them to an extreme destitution
    in every respect and had already sent many of them to their
    graves, certain old men of those whom they considered the
    best, the wisest, and the most influential, fell asleep, all
    overwhelmed [173] with weariness and despair at seeing
    a desolation so general and the impending ruin of the
    entire Gaspesian nation, unless it should promptly be
    rescued through the powerful aid of the sun, which they
    recognized, as we have already said, as their deity. It was,
    say they, in this sleep filled with bitterness that a man,
    beautiful as could be, appeared to them with a Cross in
    his hand. He told them to take heart, to go back to
    their homes, to make Crosses like that which were shown
    them, and to present these to the heads of families with the
    assurance that if they would receive the Crosses with respect
    they would find these without question the remedy for all
    their ills. And so it turned out in
    fact, for the sickness ended, and all the afflicted who used
    the Cross with respect were restored miraculously to health.
    In this they were more happy"

    ReplyDelete
  80. This is David
    Part 2

    Lehi's first landing

    "Others hold that this new world has been peopled by
    certain individuals who, having embarked upon the sea for the
    purpose of establishing a colony in foreign parts, were surprised
    by storm and tempest, which threw them upon the
    coasts of North America. Here they were unfortunately
    shipwrecked, and, with their ships, they lost everything which
    they must have had with them of property, and of the things
    which they valued most in the world. Affairs were such that
    this shipwreck having left them wholly without hope of ever
    returning [39] into their own country"

    The gaspesians had two beliefs on how they arrived in north America here is the second belief

    "They say that when the sun, which they have always
    recognized and worshiped as their God, created all this great
    universe, he divided the earth immediately into several parts,
    wholly separated one from the other by great lakes : that in
    each part he caused to be born one man and one woman, and
    they multiplied and lived a very long time : hut that having
    become wicked along with their children, who killed one
    another, the sun wept with grief thereat, and the rain fell from
    the heaven in such great abundance that the waters mounted
    even to the summit of the rocks, and of the highest and most
    lofty mountains. This flood, which, say they, was general
    over all the earth, compelled them to set sail in their bark
    canoes"

    The Gaspesian Indians practiced a mummification for their chiefs like the Egyptians did for their
    pharaohs

    "I have learned only this from our Indians, that
    the chiefs of their nation formerly entrusted the bodies of the
    dead to certain old men, who carried them sacredly to a wigwam
    built on purpose in the midst of the woods, where they
    remained for a month or six weeks. They opened the head
    and the belly of the dead person, and removed therefrom the
    brain and the entrails"

    The Gaspesians indians have a one year betrothal period Jews have a one year betrothal period

    "The one of our Indians who wishes to marry a girl must
    live an entire year in the wigwam of his mistress's father,
    whom he must serve and to whom he must give all the
    furs of moose and beavers which he kills in hunting.By the
    same law it is forbidden to the future husband and wife to
    abandon themselves to their pleasure."

    Here is another Hebrew culture that is the same as gaspesian cultural belief.

    "After the death of one's brother, it is permissible to marry
    his wife, in order that she may have children of the same
    blood if she has not had any by her first husband"


    Here is another belief that goes back to the middle east

    "A matter which is yet more surprising is this—they
    observe still to this day certain ceremonies of which they
    do not know the origin, giving no other reasons than that
    their ancestors have always practiced the same thing. The
    first is this, that the women and girls, when they suffer the
    inconveniences usual to their sex, are accounted unclean."

    ReplyDelete
  81. This is David

    Part 3
    They have a belief in a cross that Father Chrétien Le Clercq believed was due to a previous
    missionaries but the gaspesians said they had believed in the cross before the French arrived.
    This part is from
    the forward and quotes the book


    "one day to make these pagans admit that the missionaries who
    had preceded me had taught them the manner in which they
    ought to worship the Cross, the leading person said to me,
    " Well, now, thou art a Patriarch. Thou wishest that we
    believe everything that thou tellest us, but thou art not
    willing to believe that which we tell thee. Thou art not
    yet forty years old,^ and for only two hast thou dwelt with
    the Indians ; and yet thou [272] pretendest to know our
    maxims, our traditions, and our customs better than our
    ancestors who have taught them to us. Dost thou not still
    see every day the old man Quioudo, who is more than a
    hundred and twenty years old : He saw the first ship which
    landed in our country.^ He has repeated to thee often that
    the Indians of Mizamichis have not received from strangers
    the use of the Cross, and that his own knowledge of it has
    been derived through tradition from his fathers, who lived
    for at least as long a time as he."

    Their cemeteries and there daily life venerates the cross

    "The burial-places of these people are readily recognised by
    the Crosses which they place over their tombs ^
    ; and their
    cemeteries, distinguished by this sign of salvation, appear
    more like those of Christians than of Indians. This
    ceremony they observe as often as any one of the nation of
    the Cross-bearers dies, even if this happens at a distance of
    a hundred leagues from the place where their burial is usually
    made.
    Thus, by a special act of divine Providence,
    our Gaspesian Indians, with as much of joy as surprise,
    beheld in their own country a Cross like that which they were
    worshipping without knowledge thereof. They drew it, and
    wore it, religiously upon their bodies and their clothes : it
    presided over their councils, their voyages, and the most
    important affairs of their nation : their cemeteries appeared
    more like those of Christians than of barbarians, by reason
    of the number of Crosses which they placed over their tombs.
    In a word, they were, Madame, the Athenians of a new
    world, who were rendering their homage and their adoration
    to the Cross of an unknown God."

    The Gasesian Indians have the cross as the sign of their tribe to differentiates them from the other
    mik maq indian tribes. Another tribe for example uses a salmon.

    "That is true,I admit, but it is not for that reason less persuasive nor less
    convincing. For it is a fact that the Indians of Ristigouche
    are baptized, and that nevertheless they do not wear the
    Cross, but the figure of a salmon, which in old times they
    hung from the neck as [275] the mark of honour of their
    country. For it is to be noted that it has always been the
    custom of all our Gaspesians to wear some particular figures,
    which are somewhat like coats of arms, to distinguish them
    from the other Indians"

    ReplyDelete
  82. This is David

    Part 4

    Gaspesian afterlife I think has ties to temple worship.Their ancestors would not recognize
    them in the afterlife with out this token. Any lds member who has received
    their temple endowments would recognize how important tokens in the afterlife are important.


    "In a word, they value the Cross so highly
    that they order it to be interred with them in their coffins
    after death, in the belief that this Cross [186] will bear
    them company in the other world, and that they would not
    be recognised by their ancestors if they had not with them
    the symbol and honourable token which distinguishes the
    Cross-bearers from all the other Indians of New France."


    This phrase below I think has a lot of meaning and could possibly refer to the
    genocide of the Nephites by other indian tribes.

    "Since this Gaspesian nation of the Cross-bearers has been
    almost wholly destroyed, as much by the war which they have
    waged with the Iroquois"

    Here is a comparison from Gaspesian indians from Father Clercq and the Book of Mormon

    Alma 46:40

    40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent
    in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants
    and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the
    nature of the climate—

    "They have, moreover, a quantity of roots and herbs which
    are unknown to us in Europe, but whose virtues and properties
    the Indians know wonderfully well, so that they can
    make use of them in time of need."

    The Gasesian Indians have the cross as the sign of their tribe to differentiates them from the other
    mik maq indian tribes. Another tribe for example uses a salmon.

    "That is true,I admit, but it is not for that reason less persuasive nor less
    convincing. For it is a fact that the Indians of Ristigouche
    are baptized, and that nevertheless they do not wear the
    Cross, but the figure of a salmon, which in old times they
    hung from the neck as [275] the mark of honour of their
    country. For it is to be noted that it has always been the
    custom of all our Gaspesians to wear some particular figures,
    which are somewhat like coats of arms, to distinguish them
    from the other Indians"

    I had previously wrote that Silas J Rand who also lived with Mik Maq indians in the 19th century also
    compared their language to greek tapir scoffed at it now Father Clercq also agrees with the greek comparison

    "Our Indians
    agree with the Greeks and Latins in this, that they use always
    the singular, and almost never, [163] or at least very rarely,
    the plural, even when they speak to their missionaries, or to
    some other person of prominence. They express themselves
    by the word kir^ which means " thou," whether it is the
    child speaking to its father, the wife to her husband, or the
    husband to his wife."

    The use of sacred symbols on their garments

    "not an Indian would ever dare to
    appear before the others without having in his hand,
    on his skin, or on his garments this sacred sign"



    Concolor have fun with this. If it was just one or two similarities you might have an argument.
    This is pretty convincing except to those who are most heart harded.

    There is something you Simon and tapir can learn from the
    gaspisan indians and that is if you do not read sudy and accept the Book of Mormon without prejudice
    your ancestors in the afterlife will not recognize you.

    I have pulled these gems out without a full or in depth reading of the Father Clercqs book.

    I will let Ron Meldrum and Wayne May know about your discovery and give you credit for it if you want.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Part I:

      You're right, David, you didn't give it a full or in-depth reading. I'll give you credit though, it was a bit more interesting than wading through The Book of Ether since I already knew the inspiration for Mark Twain's legendary "Chloroform in print" analysis of the BOM.

      I'll start by using your own tactics of circular reasoning: In addition to honeybees, the verse in Ether mentions seeds of every kind.

      And they did also carry with them deseret, which, by interpretation, is a honeybee; and thus they did carry with them "swarms of bees, and all manner of that which was upon the face of the land, seeds of every kind.


      Ether 2:3

      I've already proven--and those are facts, not opinions-- that the little barley you referred to is an entirely different species than Old World barley. And you tried to pass off maygrass as wheat. Finally, the BOM mentions the smelting of iron, which always leaves evidence in the archaeological record, and there is none anywhere in either North or South America.

      So there is no evidence of those Old World plants in this hemisphere, and the "most correct book on Earth" is decidedly incorrect.

      And of course there are those elephants again, which are described as "especially useful." What, did they domesticate mammoths or mastodons? That's some feat, given they'd been extinct for thousands of years.

      I'm reminded of what Joan Walsh said about extreme right wing sorts and their tactics (and of course a whole lot of Mormons are pretty right wing, no?). Always lie, and never admit you're losing.

      Delete
    2. Part II:

      You lost David, and I haven't even gotten around to that Mi'kmaq malarkey you've been posting. BTW, I've been talking with Tapir Rider, who is an authentic authority on Native Americans, and he says they do have a word for you although he's unsure of the origins. He says it may be Algonquin, and it roughly translates as $#@#%! talker.

      Anyway, feel free to blow a kiss from Simon to Rodney Meldrum. Mr. Meldrum tried to challenge a couple of authentic scientists' claims about the Newark Holy Stones being frauds, and he wound up looking real stupid. Simon chimed in, and Meldrum accused him of following him around and being a troll. Actually, I'd sent Simon the heads up, and he pointed out that Meldrum is a Young Earth Creationist who thinks the Earth is 6,000 years old. Rodney bore his testimony that yes, indeed, he believed in a "Young Earth," around six thousand years old.

      Are you of that belief as well? Might explain why you accept other nonsense as well. Like suggesting 12,000 year old Clovis points were of Nephite origin.

      But as I said, you're right, you didn't give Father Cierqs book a full or in-depth reading, or you would've know the "writing" originated from marks the Mi'kmaq children used to count beyond ten with. They were simply tally marks, a memory aid, and almost all Native Americans used something similar, but the only written language in North America was developed in Mesoamerica, and it bears no relation to Old World languages. Father Le Clerq simply adapted them to his own uses, period.

      There's also something that's glaringly obvious about your cherry-picking evidence and attempting to bend it to your pre-determined conclusions (which your "spiritual witness" says are correct). The geography is really working against you. You claim the BOM lands were among the Hopewell in the American Midwest, around Ohio and Illinois, and the Mi'kmaq people lived 1200 miles away. That's a long way to travel, and they didn't have wheeled vehicles; they used travois. Similarly that artifact you--well, actually it was Barry Fell--attributed to Chief Joseph, came from an area 2,500 miles to the west.

      The Mi'kmaq were a remarkably adaptive people whose culture differed significantly from other Native Americans (they were pretty good sailors, for example), but it's just another example of European racist ethnocentricity to suggest they didn't develop these technological advances on their own.

      That reality makes the Mi'kmaq vulnerable to claims of other charlatans as well. Take a look at this guy, Paul Chiasson, who's convinced the Mi'kmaq "hieroglyphics" are actually Chinese in origin.

      http://newbrunswicknotes.blogspot.com/2012/02/of-myths-maps-and-mikmaq.html

      Seriously, take a look at the similarities. Maybe you could go argue with him that they're evidence for Hebrews and not Gavin Menzie's Chinese sailors.

      I think his room is right down the hall from yours in the asylum.

      Delete
    3. Addendum (Part I):

      With all of these, of course, I'm speaking of the pre-Columbian era. The "invention" of Mi'kmaq "hieroglyphics was a post-1492 event.

      Some analysis and background history from the translator of Le Clercq's work:

      p. 22

      He [Le Clercq] tells us that he first conceived the idea of them in the second year of his mission, that is in 167, and that they were suggested to him when he noticed that certain Indian children made marks with charcoal upon birch bark, and counted these off as they repeated each word of the prayers. This use of marks, of various kinds, as aids to the memory, was widespread among American Indians, as is amply attested by the evidence set forth in technical works works and by various records in connection with the Algonquian tribes. Thus in the Relation of the Jesuits for 1642-43 it is said of certain Indians at Silerly: "When the Father began to instruct them, they would count the points and the questions on their fingers; but, the number coming to exceed that of the gingers, they would mark them on pieces of bark, making certain figures which represented from them the sense of some clause…. Father Druillletes, referring to the the Abnakis, wrote… "Some would write their lessons after a fashion of their own, using a bit of charcoal for a pen, and a piece of bark instead of a paper. Their characters were new, and so peculiar that one could not recognise or understand the writing of another….

      p. 24

      It was the method, indeed, by which they "read" all of their wampum records. It would not matter what the form of the symbol for a certain idea might be, and therefore different Indians could use different symbols for the same idea, while the same Indian could use different ones at different times.

      In brief, we may say that he found his Indians capable of remembering tenaciously any association of word, fact, or simple idea with a written arbitrary symbol; he found them more or less accustomed to the use of series of such symbols to aid in recalling a sequence of facts or ideas; and perhaps he found them provided with some generally understood picture-symbols for the commonest objects, though these must have been extremely few. No doubt our author, in developing his system, made use of all existent symbols, and in other respects utilised everything already available in this connection; but the words and ideas involved in the prayers he decided to teach were so many an unfamiliar that he must had to begin practically anew. He tells us that he "formed (formez) those characters, by which he could only mean he invented them...



      Delete
    4. Part II


      From p. 26 from the archive Dave cited:

      Again, in a letter written by 'Abbé Maillard himself, at a date unknown, but certainly much alter than that of l'Abbé de Loutre, he says: "In order to make them learn more quickly, and with more more ease than they could heretofore, the prayers, the chants, and the instructions that we desire they should know, we distribute among them copy-books on which we have traced in hieroglyphics, which we have invented ourselves, all the words of which these prayers, chants, and instructs are composed…. He then adds a description of their use by the Indians which agrees very closely with the statements of Father le Clercq, and he gives much more interest in the same connection, though nothing essential in our present inquiry… It is only necessary to compare this sample some of the modern examples given upon the same plate to settle one point of our inquiry: namely, the modern hieroglyphics of the Micmacs are identical with those used by l'Abbé Maillard.

      The utter desperation of the "diffusionist" crowd is seen in the inconsistency in the way they grasp at straws, claiming "Hebrew writing" present on the frauds such as the Bat Creek Stones and the Newark Holy Stones while then reverting to the suggestion that Egyptian hieroglyphics were the inspiration for Mi'kmaq writing.

      Small wonder credible scholars won't take them seriously.

      Delete
  83. This is David

    Concolor I dont think you know what you did you exposed a second written record of Jesus christ visit and lehis landing in America not to mention a bunch of hebrew and egyptian cultural beliefs i need you to try and explain away or find holes in the below listed quotes. Could you please stop focusing on bees and elephants.

    Lehi's first landing

    "Others hold that this new world has been peopled by
    certain individuals who, having embarked upon the sea for the
    purpose of establishing a colony in foreign parts, were surprised
    by storm and tempest, which threw them upon the
    coasts of North America. Here they were unfortunately
    shipwrecked, and, with their ships, they lost everything which
    they must have had with them of property, and of the things
    which they valued most in the world. Affairs were such that
    this shipwreck having left them wholly without hope of ever
    returning into their own country"

    The gaspesians had two beliefs on how they arrived in north America here is the second belief

    "They say that when the sun, which they have always
    recognized and worshiped as their God, created all this great
    universe, he divided the earth immediately into several parts,
    wholly separated one from the other by great lakes : that in
    each part he caused to be born one man and one woman, and
    they multiplied and lived a very long time : hut that having
    become wicked along with their children, who killed one
    another, the sun wept with grief thereat, and the rain fell from
    the heaven in such great abundance that the waters mounted
    even to the summit of the rocks, and of the highest and most
    lofty mountains. This flood, which, say they, was general
    over all the earth, compelled them to set sail in their bark
    canoes"

    Jesus Christ visit

    "They claim that, at a time when their
    country was afflicted with a very dangerous and deadly
    malady which had reduced them to an extreme destitution
    in every respect and had already sent many of them to their
    graves, certain old men of those whom they considered the
    best, the wisest, and the most influential, fell asleep, all
    overwhelmed with weariness and despair at seeing
    a desolation so general and the impending ruin of the
    entire Gaspesian nation, unless it should promptly be
    rescued through the powerful aid of the sun, which they
    recognized, as we have already said, as their deity. It was,
    say they, in this sleep filled with bitterness that a man,
    beautiful as could be, appeared to them with a Cross in
    his hand. He told them to take heart, to go back to
    their homes, to make Crosses like that which were shown
    them, and to present these to the heads of families with the
    assurance that if they would receive the Crosses with respect
    they would find these without question the remedy for all
    their ills. And so it turned out in
    fact, for the sickness ended, and all the afflicted who used
    the Cross with respect were restored miraculously to health.
    In this they were more happy"
    I would say the sleep may correspond to the three days of darkness mentioned in 3Nephi


    The Gaspesian Indians practiced a mummification for their chiefs like the Egyptians did for their
    pharaohs. Since the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians at one time it looks like this tradition got passed down.

    "I have learned only this from our Indians, that
    the chiefs of their nation formerly entrusted the bodies of the
    dead to certain old men, who carried them sacredly to a wigwam
    built on purpose in the midst of the woods, where they
    remained for a month or six weeks. They opened the head
    and the belly of the dead person, and removed therefrom the
    brain and the entrails"

    ReplyDelete
  84. This is David

    part 2

    The Gaspesians indians have a one year betrothal period and dowry just like the Hebrews do.

    "The one of our Indians who wishes to marry a girl must
    live an entire year in the wigwam of his mistress's father,
    whom he must serve and to whom he must give all the
    furs of moose and beavers which he kills in hunting.By the
    same law it is forbidden to the future husband and wife to
    abandon themselves to their pleasure."

    Here is another Hebrew culture that is the same as gaspesian cultural belief.

    "After the death of one's brother, it is permissible to marry
    his wife, in order that she may have children of the same
    blood if she has not had any by her first husband"

    Here is another belief that goes back to the middle east

    "A matter which is yet more surprising is this—they
    observe still to this day certain ceremonies of which they
    do not know the origin, giving no other reasons than that
    their ancestors have always practiced the same thing. The
    first is this, that the women and girls, when they suffer the
    inconveniences usual to their sex, are accounted unclean."

    They have a belief in a cross that Father Chrétien Le Clercq believed was due to a previous
    missionaries but the gaspesians said they had believed in the cross before the French arrived.

    "one day to make these pagans admit that the missionaries who
    had preceded me had taught them the manner in which they
    ought to worship the Cross, the leading person said to me,
    " Well, now, thou art a Patriarch. Thou wishest that we
    believe everything that thou tellest us, but thou art not
    willing to believe that which we tell thee. Thou art not
    yet forty years old and for only two hast thou dwelt with
    the Indians ; and yet thou pretendest to know our
    maxims, our traditions, and our customs better than our
    ancestors who have taught them to us. Dost thou not still
    see every day the old man Quioudo, who is more than a
    hundred and twenty years old : He saw the first ship which
    landed in our country. He has repeated to thee often that
    the Indians of Mizamichis have not received from strangers
    the use of the Cross, and that his own knowledge of it has
    been derived through tradition from his fathers, who lived
    for at least as long a time as he."

    Their cemeteries and there daily life venerates the cross

    "The burial-places of these people are readily recognised by
    the Crosses which they place over their tombs ^
    ; and their
    cemeteries, distinguished by this sign of salvation, appear
    more like those of Christians than of Indians. This
    ceremony they observe as often as any one of the nation of
    the Cross-bearers dies, even if this happens at a distance of
    a hundred leagues from the place where their burial is usually
    made.
    Thus, by a special act of divine Providence,
    our Gaspesian Indians, with as much of joy as surprise,
    beheld in their own country a Cross like that which they were
    worshipping without knowledge thereof. They drew it, and
    wore it, religiously upon their bodies and their clothes : it
    presided over their councils, their voyages, and the most
    important affairs of their nation : their cemeteries appeared
    more like those of Christians than of barbarians, by reason
    of the number of Crosses which they placed over their tombs.
    In a word, they were, Madame, the Athenians of a new
    world, who were rendering their homage and their adoration
    to the Cross of an unknown God."

    ReplyDelete
  85. This is david
    part 3

    Here is an interesting statement made by Father Clercq

    these people had received in times past a knowledge
    of the Gospel and of Christianity, which they have
    finally lost through the negligence and the licentiousness of
    their ancestors.

    This statements also refers to their loss of their learning that fits the BooK of Mormon. This statement is referring to their founding fathers I also believe that it refers to missionary work and teaching done by their high priest

    They hold, further, that it could well have been a fact that these
    individuals were instructed in the sacred mysteries of our holy
    Religion, and that they had even a knowledge and the use of
    letters, since, in the establishment of colonies, it is customary
    to send there men who are alike learned and pious, in order
    that they may teach to the peoples, along with purely
    human knowledge, the most solid maxims of Christian wisdom
    and piety. Nobody, however, having followed them in these
    glorious employments, the knowledge which they had of the
    true God, of letters, and of their origin, was thus gradually
    lost and effaced from the minds of their unfortunate posterity
    by the lapse of time.

    This statement I find very interesting comparing the babies hair
    color to European baby hair colors.

    Although children are born among them
    with hair of different colours, as in Europe,

    This also agrees with a quote from William Penn

    William Penn wrote the following to a friend in England. “I found them [the Indians of
    the eastern shore of North America] with like• countenances with the Hebrew race; and
    their children of so lively a resemblance to them that a man would think himself in
    Duke’s place, or Barry street, in London, when he sees them.”

    This observation is supported by science by the below listed quotes from research paper done on Haplo group x. The mik maq Indians have haplo group x dna
    "To date, haplogroup X has not been unambiguously identified in Asia, raising the possibility that some Native American founders were of Caucasian ancestry."
    "A recent survey of European mtDNAs has demonstrated the presence of the same “other” haplotype motif in modern European populations, in which it is called “haplogroup X.”"
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707616292

    ReplyDelete
  86. This is David
    Part 4

    Gaspesian afterlife I think has ties to temple worship. Their ancestors would not recognize them in the afterlife without this token. Any lds member who has received
    their temple endowments would recognize the idea of tokens and afterlife.

    "In a word, they value the Cross so highly
    that they order it to be interred with them in their coffins
    after death, in the belief that this Cross will bear
    them company in the other world, and that they would not
    be recognized by their ancestors if they had not with them
    the symbol and honorable token which distinguishes the
    Cross-bearers from all the other Indians of New France."

    This phrase below I think has a lot of meaning and could possibly refer to the
    genocide of the Nephites by other Indian tribes.

    "Since this Gaspesian nation of the Cross-bearers has been
    almost wholly destroyed, as much by the war which they have
    waged with the Iroquois"


    Below is a quote from Chief Blackfish from 17th century but I must admit I do not have the source for it and have not been able to find out if its legit still trying to find the original but native american descended by europeans is supported by eye witness observations and dna .
    "The Shawnees", Black Fish said, "cannot tell you that you are allowed to settle in the Can-tuc-kee lands. We have never owned that land. It belongs to the ghosts of murdered Azgens - a white people from an eastern sea. Their bones and ghosts own and occupy every hill and valley of the country. They protect the game there and have more and better right there than any of the Indian tribes, including our own Shawnee nation, because they do not need or use material food themselves and do not like it. Long ago our fathers and our grandfathers killed off the Azgens, but we now fear more the spirits of these people than our fathers and grandfathers feared them when they were flesh."


    Here is a comparison from Gaspesian indians from Father Clercq and the Book of Mormon

    Alma 46:40

    40 And there were some who died with fevers, which at some seasons of the year were very frequent
    in the land—but not so much so with fevers, because of the excellent qualities of the many plants
    and roots which God had prepared to remove the cause of diseases, to which men were subject by the
    nature of the climate—

    "They have, moreover, a quantity of roots and herbs which
    are unknown to us in Europe, but whose virtues and properties
    the Indians know wonderfully well, so that they can
    make use of them in time of need."

    ReplyDelete
  87. This is David
    part 5
    The Gaspesian Indians have the cross as the sign of their tribe to differentiates them from the other
    mik maq indian tribes. Another tribe for example uses a salmon.

    "That is true,I admit, but it is not for that reason less persuasive nor less
    convincing. For it is a fact that the Indians of Ristigouche
    are baptized, and that nevertheless they do not wear the
    Cross, but the figure of a salmon, which in old times they
    hung from the neck as the mark of honour of their
    country. For it is to be noted that it has always been the
    custom of all our Gaspesians to wear some particular figures,
    which are somewhat like coats of arms, to distinguish them
    from the other Indians"

    I had previously found that Silas J Rand who also lived with Mik Maq indians in the 19th century also
    compared their language to Greek it now appears Father Clercq saw the same comparison. I would also like to mention that the early Greek Orthodox Church used a cross with the arms all of equal lengths as a symbol for their church. In the mik maq language this symbol in a circle with another greek style cross on top of the circle means holy. This Greek style cross was also found in mound builders arch sites. The greeks also have a fairly high haplo group x concentration. The egyption orthodox Christians use this style of cross also. The Canadian mik maq indian tribe at one time had a written language similar to hieroglyphics and four characters very close to Egyptian hieroglyphics


    "Our Indians
    agree with the Greeks and Latins in this, that they use always
    the singular, and almost never, or at least very rarely,

    the plural, even when they speak to their missionaries, or to
    some other person of prominence. They express themselves
    by the word kir^ which means " thou," whether it is the
    child speaking to its father, the wife to her husband, or the
    husband to his wife."

    Silas J Rand lived with the Mik Maq Indians for forty years in 1860 below is his comparison to the greek language.

    https://archive.org/stream/cihm_12305#page/n13/mode/2up
    "They have a dual number like the Greek.
    They express the different persons and numbers by the ter-
    mination of the verb, and like the Greek have a great number
    of tenses. There are also some words in the language which
    resemble Greek. The Micmac word Ellcnu, an Indian, is
    not very different from "E\\i;i', a Greek. FJlenK rsit (" He
    speaks Micmac ") is strikingly like the Greek kWijin^ti (" He
    speaks Greek "). But in other respects the language resembles
    the Hebrew, especially in the suffixes b)' which the pronouns
    are connected in the accusative case with the verb.




    The use of sacred symbol on their garments

    "not an Indian would ever dare to
    appear before the others without having in his hand,
    on his skin, or on his garments this sacred sign"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. David, my great-grandmother, who was a believing Mormon until the day she died, used to have a saying, "You don't have any defense against a liar."

      I congratulate you on emulating your prophet, Joseph Smith, with your dishonest spiels and circular reasoning. Have you read the latest church essays on how nearly a third of Joseph Smith's "plural wives" were under the age of 17?

      You're asking people to accept the word of a proven sexual predator, and fortunately, most of the world isn't buying it.

      Just yesterday, I was with two friends, a former Mormon who'd filled a mission, and a non-Mormon who's a metal sculptor. My ex-missionary friend commented on a piece by the other guy, a representation of a snake in a motif suggested by the art of Indians in the Southwest. The ex-Mormon made a comment about two metal supports that were attached to the snake, saying, "I see the snake has legs." That puzzled my sculptor buddy, and I had to explain the joke and why I chuckled.

      There's a curious figure in the authentic Egyptian artifacts Joseph Smith acquired to produce his translation of the Book of Abraham, (which modern Egyptologists have shown to be as big a fraud as the Bat Creek or Newark Holy Stones); it appears to be a snake with legs.

      In defending the finds as "scripture," Joseph Smith said, "Before the Fall, snakes had legs."

      If you're going to believe crap like that, I can't help you. You still haven't addressed Rodney Meldrum's Creationist claims about a 6,000 year old Earth, and instead you opt for more shell games and circular reasoning.

      First the language is Egyptian; then it's Greek; no wait! It's Hebrew!

      Hey, you're not one of Glenn Beck's writers, are you?

      You don't understand language and the study of etymology any better than you know DNA science or ancient sailing practices or the actual history of Native Americans. Everything starts out being run through that lie you were taught as a toddler, which is "The church is true."

      The LDS Church is built on a fraud, period. Tell yourself that two hundred times, more if necessary, perhaps a thousand, and at some point you'll probably start to scream. Maybe for a long time. When you stop, however, I promise you'll feel better.

      You can't even read your own research (it ain't mine, honest; I'm just a mild-mannered science reporter). It's strictly 19th century speculation, and you're trying to peddle it as gospel. From the piece you cited: the cross used by one band of the Mi'kmaq was originally a stylized animal figure probably like the salmon the other group used. You know, it might've been a bat; bats are particularly hard to see in the dark, and they certainly would've been scary and intimidating. Writers of vampire lore have known this since the days of Bram Stoker.

      BTW, you're also following in Hugh Nibley's footsteps. Do you recall his daughter, Martha, saying how he determined to defend the church no matter what, and she did have to admire the ingenuity of his "solution," which was to "go crazy."

      Now go bother that guy who's claiming the Mi'kmaq's were taught writing by the Chinese. He might have a better case than you do, and you can keep each other busy until the guys in white coats arrive.

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    2. And with this, I'm going to bid this blog entry "adieu" until Simon offers us more of the fruits of his journey in another column (there's a joke in there, BTW, for the linguistically sophisticated sort familiar with BOM anachronisms). I'm making my New Year's Resolution early, and I'm just not going to click on this comments section again. David will doubtless have more to say, but he's essentially hollering into empty cyber-space, and sound, whether truth or nonsense, doesn't travel in a vacuum.

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  88. concolor1 and tapir rider....what do you believe in? It's clear that which you don't. What do you hold to be true today that you held to be true 10 years ago?

    Also, if you don't believe in God....then isn't all religion with claims of revelation from God a fraud? Isn't it all just man-made? Why do you invest so much time in proving this little insignificant LDS church (with less than 5 million members as you say) to be false and everything about it when all of Christianity, Judaism (and the "mythical Noah's flood"),Islam... is just pure fantasy. You've already convicted the defendant of murder - why bother with shop-lifting?

    Or is there another agenda here? Seems to me you're not much different to Hugh Nibley but in destroying the church no matter what.

    I was in the ward of Simon Southerton's brother - Bob and his family and taught his two sons in Young Mens - great kids - one of which was a bright 14 year old with his Dad's entrepreneurial prowess - developing websites for his Dad's friends. Bob was actually the Young Men's president. A good man. His wife was already struggling and came to church on the occasion and just needed something to push her over. Evidently that came with Simon Southerton's discovery. I thought I knew Bob too and felt he probably left more on account of his wife than his brother. No doubt Simon will say different.

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    1. son_of_will, you can learn more about me at my google plus and youtube pages.

      https://plus.google.com/u/0/107573984212894845783/about

      https://www.youtube.com/user/tapirrider1

      The Book of Mormon teaches morally condemnable ideas about America's indigenous peoples and I speak out for that reason. What do I hold to be true today that I held true 10 years ago? Pretty much the same things. I have been with the same beautiful wife for 31+ years. We don't use alcohol, we don't support the use of drugs or the legalization of marijuana. I believe that all peoples should be free to worship in their own way and I support the rights of America's indigenous peoples to do that much more so now than when I was LDS. The Book of Mormon taught me that they needed to abandon their false traditions and be baptized so they could blossom. I now know that it false and that their own traditions are just as valid as anyone else's. I have watched my wife's people overcome alcohol and drug addictions by learning and practicing their own ancestral traditions, this after Christianity failed them. I have watched her people's youth avoid the destruction of drinking by being led by their elders into the beliefs and lifestyles that have been practiced in the prairies of North America for thousands of years. I believe in the good of humans, I see the world as filled with a majority of good people, that the bad is caused by a handful of troublemakers. And I believe that having been a member of the LDS church for 49 years, it is more important than ever now for me to speak out about the racism and morally condemnable teachings being promoted by the LDS church with the Book of Mormon. I also believe that most LDS members are good and decent people, but they are influenced by the racist teachings in their keystone scripture.

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  89. This is David

    Merry Christmas

    Concolor you did not even attempt to explain away the New relation of Gaspesia account of Jesus Christ Visit and lehi's landing in north america. You either did not try very hard or there is nothing you can find that that can be disputed if you find anything please let me know. You have been very helpful up to this point. Also I have a earlier account of a North American tribe venerating the cross from 1540 and used the cross in burial in a similar manner just like mic mak indians. There was not a detailed description but the spaniards attributed the christian belief and worship came from India. And by the way I'm not Rodney Meldrum nor do I believe the earth is 6000 years old. I don't know if you know this or not the church came out with a new temple video. When i walk out of the temple i come out thinking the world is billions of years old but that is just me and the impression i get. Concolor its not to late to rejoin/become active again in the church. I can hear the frustration in your voice. the dna cultural and linguistic ties are starting to pile on. That can only be attributed to the fact that me and other people are looking in the right spot and i have to acknowledge your help too. Looking in the right spot makes a huge difference thank you.

    Concolor

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  90. This is David

    Concolor I want to help Simon write a sequel Finding A Lost Tribe. Written by Simon and David. What do you say.

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    1. What, you've finally listened to what TapirRider and I have been saying, and it's sunk in that the Book of Mormon is a total fraud concocted in the 19th Century?

      Okay, but I don't think Simon needs more perspective on that subject right now. I recommend you go spend some time with Kerry Shirts, aka "The Backyard Professor." Kerry has figured things out, and I'm certain he'll have some insightful offerings at some point. Also, per John Dehlin, if you're going to deal with all of the consequences and ramifications of abandoning long-held beliefs acquired from an LDS upbringing, it's wise to seek professional help and support on your journey.

      Do I have anything else to say? Well, you forgot a question mark.

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